The Bren Ten is back!
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Robert Hairless
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Vltor Weapon Systems is a serious company that makes serious products. If they do it, I'll consider it. You can view CAD model renderings of the Fortis at http://www.militarymorons.com/weapons/fortis.html. To see enlargements of the thumbnails you need to use "MM" as both the user name and password.
wuchak
Member
I'd never seen a Sarsilmaz but I like the ports on the slide of this one. I doesn't look like the barrel is ported just port holes in the slide for weight reduction. Reminds me of an old Buick.
I feel this gun is not going to make it especially if the price is high. I hope I'm wrong though. 10mm is not dead, but it reminds me of the .41mag sort of in performance and how is sells and the type of people it attracts. I have both 10mm and .41mag firearms but the general gun buying public never did seem to go for them like hardcore gun enthusiasts.
SUNUVAGUN !!!!! I gotta check my other email addresses more frickin' often!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Eric gave me the heads up before this hit the streets!!
I have been sitting on this information for almost 2 months, AND IT'S BEEN KILLING ME!!!!!!!
I sold my Bren Ten to Eric Kincel and Vltor's parent company, Abrams Airborne Mfg. Inc, in December and had 2 or 3 telephone conversations with Eric. They were buying up a few to study for the engineering involved in producing/reintroducing the Bren Ten. I knew this was coming and asked him if I could leak out that a "major corporation" was getting ready to announce & reintroduce. He asked me to wait at least a month before saying anything, and I did.
The weird thing is, during this past week, I had been thinking that I should email him and ask him if it was okay to announce it. Oh well, I didn't get the scoop, but in some small way, I partially, minutely, contributed to this project going forward ( at least, that's what I'm tellin' myself)!!
I can tell you that Eric is a stand-up guy and a true blue, dyed-in-the-wool 10mm guy. He has had at least one article on the Bren published, and this is not something that is being done on a whim. Abrams Airborne Mfg. is a MAJOR company, so the financial and business woes of Dornaeus & Dixon, as well as Richard Voight, should not be a factor.
As far as Richard Voight, I do believe that the time frame for his patents/rights to the Bren Ten and/or Peregrine have long ago expired; I believe patents are only good for 17 years.
Sam
I have been sitting on this information for almost 2 months, AND IT'S BEEN KILLING ME!!!!!!!
I sold my Bren Ten to Eric Kincel and Vltor's parent company, Abrams Airborne Mfg. Inc, in December and had 2 or 3 telephone conversations with Eric. They were buying up a few to study for the engineering involved in producing/reintroducing the Bren Ten. I knew this was coming and asked him if I could leak out that a "major corporation" was getting ready to announce & reintroduce. He asked me to wait at least a month before saying anything, and I did.
The weird thing is, during this past week, I had been thinking that I should email him and ask him if it was okay to announce it. Oh well, I didn't get the scoop, but in some small way, I partially, minutely, contributed to this project going forward ( at least, that's what I'm tellin' myself)!!
I can tell you that Eric is a stand-up guy and a true blue, dyed-in-the-wool 10mm guy. He has had at least one article on the Bren published, and this is not something that is being done on a whim. Abrams Airborne Mfg. is a MAJOR company, so the financial and business woes of Dornaeus & Dixon, as well as Richard Voight, should not be a factor.
As far as Richard Voight, I do believe that the time frame for his patents/rights to the Bren Ten and/or Peregrine have long ago expired; I believe patents are only good for 17 years.
Sam
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RustyShackelford
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Did somebody say .41AE or .40Super????...
Will this "new" Bren Ten design come in .41AE or .40Super?
James "Sonny" Crockett would spin in his grave...
I saw a matched pair of NIB Bren 10 10mm pistols from D&D a few years ago at a big gun show...
If I had the $$$ I would have bought 'em.
Rusty S
PS: The FBI did issue a large S&W third gen pistol in full power 10mm but the field agents could not stand carrying these big sidearms around. The 1006/1046 S&W pistols could not take the constant pounding from full power 10mm duty loads either. That is how the weaker 10mm 180 JHP rounds came about.
The big B now issues the Glock 23 .40S&W and some Glock 22 .40 pistols to new FBI agents.
Will this "new" Bren Ten design come in .41AE or .40Super?
James "Sonny" Crockett would spin in his grave...
I saw a matched pair of NIB Bren 10 10mm pistols from D&D a few years ago at a big gun show...
If I had the $$$ I would have bought 'em
.Rusty S
PS: The FBI did issue a large S&W third gen pistol in full power 10mm but the field agents could not stand carrying these big sidearms around. The 1006/1046 S&W pistols could not take the constant pounding from full power 10mm duty loads either. That is how the weaker 10mm 180 JHP rounds came about.
The big B now issues the Glock 23 .40S&W and some Glock 22 .40 pistols to new FBI agents.
Peter M. Eick
Member
As a 10mm fan I am idly interested, but I doubt I would buy one. I had a witness which I liked but in the end I sold it. 1911's 10mm's are just fine for me right now.
Well, Colt has a "New for 2008" model at the SHOT Show. It's a .....10mm Delta Elite.
Let's see, S&W reintroduced the 610 revolver; Colt is reintroducing the Delta Elite; Vltor is reintroducing the Bren Ten; Wilson's, STI, and Ed Brown all list 10mm as standard offerings; Kimber, EAA/Tanfoglio, Glock, Dan Wesson, Fusion Firearms, Springfield's Custom Shop, et al, produce 10mm pistols.
Yep, that settles it-the 10mm is definitely DEAD!
Sam
Let's see, S&W reintroduced the 610 revolver; Colt is reintroducing the Delta Elite; Vltor is reintroducing the Bren Ten; Wilson's, STI, and Ed Brown all list 10mm as standard offerings; Kimber, EAA/Tanfoglio, Glock, Dan Wesson, Fusion Firearms, Springfield's Custom Shop, et al, produce 10mm pistols.
Yep, that settles it-the 10mm is definitely DEAD!
Sam
RustyShackelford wrote:
With all due respect Rusty, this is not accurate. The 10XX series were built like Sherman tanks. They are STILL shooting full power loads, and holding up just fine.
The size of the pistols was a huge factor, yes. So was the recoil for the agents who were used to 9mm & .38 Specials, which led to the FBI requesting a downloaded cartridge (180 gr. bullet @950 fps-virtually identical to the 185 gr. .45 ACP). When the engineers @ Winchester & S&W realized the requested load could be produced in a smaller case, viola, the .40 S&W.
Of course, when the .40 S&W took off, sales for the 10XX series waned, and that is what led to its discontinuation. However, with Colt bringing back the Delta Elite, I wouldn't be surprised to see S&W resurrect the 10XX series too!
Sam
With all due respect Rusty, this is not accurate. The 10XX series were built like Sherman tanks. They are STILL shooting full power loads, and holding up just fine.
The size of the pistols was a huge factor, yes. So was the recoil for the agents who were used to 9mm & .38 Specials, which led to the FBI requesting a downloaded cartridge (180 gr. bullet @950 fps-virtually identical to the 185 gr. .45 ACP). When the engineers @ Winchester & S&W realized the requested load could be produced in a smaller case, viola, the .40 S&W.
Of course, when the .40 S&W took off, sales for the 10XX series waned, and that is what led to its discontinuation. However, with Colt bringing back the Delta Elite, I wouldn't be surprised to see S&W resurrect the 10XX series too!
Sam
the pistolero
Member
From everything I've heard about the Witness it's hit-or-miss, and God help you if you get a bad one. I don't know anything about Vitor, but if they make a good gun and back up their product, I'd be VERY interested in getting one of these.
MatthewVanitas
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DMK
Member
The EAA Witness isn't a Bren Ten. I mean that's like saying that there are plenty good 45ACPs out there, why buy a 1911? The answer is, because they aren't 1911s.
RustyShackelford
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Now Sam...
I read many, many gun press items in the late 1980s/early 1990s about the S&W 10mm pistols and the use of duty S&W pistols by FBI special agents.
The FBI's FTU(Firearms Training Unit) that was run by an FBI agent named John Hall explained how the FBI wanted to use the S&W pistols but the frames and some slides would crack from the full power 10mm rounds. S&W changed the 10mm series designs and used more steel, thicker slides/frames/etc and that is what made the newer pistols harder to carry by field agents. Some FBI agents reported they would carry the S&W 10mm 1076/1046s in a briefcase or binder rather than lug it around on the hip or shoulder.
Rusty
I read many, many gun press items in the late 1980s/early 1990s about the S&W 10mm pistols and the use of duty S&W pistols by FBI special agents.
The FBI's FTU(Firearms Training Unit) that was run by an FBI agent named John Hall explained how the FBI wanted to use the S&W pistols but the frames and some slides would crack from the full power 10mm rounds. S&W changed the 10mm series designs and used more steel, thicker slides/frames/etc and that is what made the newer pistols harder to carry by field agents. Some FBI agents reported they would carry the S&W 10mm 1076/1046s in a briefcase or binder rather than lug it around on the hip or shoulder.
Rusty
RustyShackelford
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Now Sam...
I read many, many gun press items in the late 1980s/early 1990s about the S&W 10mm pistols and the use of duty S&W pistols by FBI special agents.
The FBI's FTU(Firearms Training Unit) that was run by an FBI agent named John Hall explained how the FBI wanted to use the S&W pistols but the frames and some slides would crack from the full power 10mm rounds. S&W changed the 10mm series designs and used more steel, thicker slides/frames/etc and that is what made the newer pistols harder to carry by field agents. Some FBI agents reported they would carry the S&W 10mm 1076/1046s in a briefcase or binder rather than lug it around on the hip or shoulder.
Rusty
I read many, many gun press items in the late 1980s/early 1990s about the S&W 10mm pistols and the use of duty S&W pistols by FBI special agents.
The FBI's FTU(Firearms Training Unit) that was run by an FBI agent named John Hall explained how the FBI wanted to use the S&W pistols but the frames and some slides would crack from the full power 10mm rounds. S&W changed the 10mm series designs and used more steel, thicker slides/frames/etc and that is what made the newer pistols harder to carry by field agents. Some FBI agents reported they would carry the S&W 10mm 1076/1046s in a briefcase or binder rather than lug it around on the hip or shoulder.
Rusty
jeff-10
Member
For some reason I had the idea that the guy who used to own Triton or the guys who currently owns Cor Bon had the rights to the Bren Ten. Anyways I am glad to see someone is finally remaking the Bren Ten. I like how there are so many naysayers and 10mm haters prediciting it will be a bomb. I think it will do well as long is it isn't just a more expensice version of an EAA Witness.
jfh
Member.
Rusty: I think you are mixing two issues here--maybe three. And, while you are perfectly able to draw your own conclusions, I am not so sure those are accurate.
1. Yes, the S&W 10s went through a development process that included metal failures--but the issued / manufactured guns did not, once the FBI got done changing specs to 'tweak' the pistols.
2. Yes, the agents complained about the size, not to mention the recoil issues. And that says as much about the psyche of those in the trenches as it might about the firearm.
The 1006 that was readily available in the retail market was trouble-free and readily capable of digesting MAX power 10mm loads. I owned one for quite some time, and it was the only 10 I own I liked to shoot full-house 10s in.
I sold it when I did my initial safe cleaning about six months ago; I realized I no longer wanted to shoot a 10 that did not have 1911-type ergonomics.
So, respectfully, I think you need to separate FBI issues from the pistol and S&W design.
As for this Vlotr project--as others have indicated, there are loads of current 10 mms out there now. While I respect the opinions of those who have had EAA problems--I have not had them. The Vlotr illustrations look like little more than a variant on the EAA Elite Match 10mm, whose most significant change is the incorporation of a barrel bushing.
At a current retail price of $480.00, the EAA Elite Match 10mm is a real good value pistol. I wrote up my impressions of it here . A 100.00 worth of manufacturing changes (and possibly QC) would make it arguably better than this 'vaporware' Bren Ten.
Jim H.
1. Yes, the S&W 10s went through a development process that included metal failures--but the issued / manufactured guns did not, once the FBI got done changing specs to 'tweak' the pistols.
2. Yes, the agents complained about the size, not to mention the recoil issues. And that says as much about the psyche of those in the trenches as it might about the firearm.
The 1006 that was readily available in the retail market was trouble-free and readily capable of digesting MAX power 10mm loads. I owned one for quite some time, and it was the only 10 I own I liked to shoot full-house 10s in.
I sold it when I did my initial safe cleaning about six months ago; I realized I no longer wanted to shoot a 10 that did not have 1911-type ergonomics.
So, respectfully, I think you need to separate FBI issues from the pistol and S&W design.
As for this Vlotr project--as others have indicated, there are loads of current 10 mms out there now. While I respect the opinions of those who have had EAA problems--I have not had them. The Vlotr illustrations look like little more than a variant on the EAA Elite Match 10mm, whose most significant change is the incorporation of a barrel bushing.
At a current retail price of $480.00, the EAA Elite Match 10mm is a real good value pistol. I wrote up my impressions of it here . A 100.00 worth of manufacturing changes (and possibly QC) would make it arguably better than this 'vaporware' Bren Ten.
Jim H.
RustyShackelford
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FBI/FTU-S&W 10mm pistols...
I'd say the best source would be a former FBI special agent or someone who knows in depth details about the FBI S&W 10mm duty pistols and/or the FBI's Firearms Training Unit around that time frame(1989-1994)...
That would settle this debate!!!
I'd say the best source would be a former FBI special agent or someone who knows in depth details about the FBI S&W 10mm duty pistols and/or the FBI's Firearms Training Unit around that time frame(1989-1994)...
That would settle this debate!!!
Ivy Mike
Member
Now if we could just convince CZ to introduce a 10mm version of the CZ97.
Grayrider
Member
I will be buying one of these if it is priced reasonably. I have long pined for a Bren 10, but was not willing to pay current prices for a gun with no factory support. VLTOR is a good company and I would be comfortable with them backing the pistol. I want to shoot this gun not just own it as a collectable.
John
John
boomer1911a1
Member
Not that I don't love my Witness 10mms...
... but if this thing makes it to production, I'll own one within weeks of its release. This is on the assumption that it will be US-made. If it's a 10mm Sarsilmaz, it would have to be very reasonably priced -- like the AR-24.
What I've always wanted is a true Dornaus and Dixon Bren Ten, but with a stronger build, magazines that work, and full factory support.
I'll be watching this one very closely...
... but if this thing makes it to production, I'll own one within weeks of its release. This is on the assumption that it will be US-made. If it's a 10mm Sarsilmaz, it would have to be very reasonably priced -- like the AR-24.
What I've always wanted is a true Dornaus and Dixon Bren Ten, but with a stronger build, magazines that work, and full factory support.
I'll be watching this one very closely...
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StVitus
Member
To quote jfh:
"The Vlotr illustrations look like little more than a variant on the EAA Elite Match 10mm, whose most significant change is the incorporation of a barrel bushing."
With all due respect, I beg to differ. The CAD drawings posted bear no real resemblance to the Witness Elite other than the general shape of a CZ on steroids. The renderings are so close to the original Bren Ten that they even have the three "dots" on the side of the frame which were actually a manufacturing error in the placement of the safety detent dot. An error that D&D tried to cover up by adding the third dot to the frame. It looks like Vltor copied an actual Bren Ten almost exactly.....
SHOOT1SAM, did you have blueprints to provide to Vltor?
"The Vlotr illustrations look like little more than a variant on the EAA Elite Match 10mm, whose most significant change is the incorporation of a barrel bushing."
With all due respect, I beg to differ. The CAD drawings posted bear no real resemblance to the Witness Elite other than the general shape of a CZ on steroids. The renderings are so close to the original Bren Ten that they even have the three "dots" on the side of the frame which were actually a manufacturing error in the placement of the safety detent dot. An error that D&D tried to cover up by adding the third dot to the frame. It looks like Vltor copied an actual Bren Ten almost exactly.....
SHOOT1SAM, did you have blueprints to provide to Vltor?
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