The Citizen's Rifle

[JCMAG]

Hey Nolo, great sketches! They're really cool.

I'd definitely get one of your rifles. I'm of the opinion that, in the case of large bans, that it is imperative to have large stores of capable firearms already possessed. You are then threatened by seizures, at which point all questions of legality of the firearms go out the window--it's time to start unloading the stores and loading the magazines.

A ban resistant rifle isn't a bad idea, it just isn't likely. I'm not saying your design is faulty--I really like it. But if your rifle were to become popular, it, too, would be banned.

But in the meantime, take a look see into your state law on building your own firearms or make a project to "modify" an existing one. Get to work, see if you can't make that FAL-M1A come alive. Could be cool.

 

[Nolo]

I'll talk about the other rifles (and shotties) some other time.
I will certainly think about beefing up the stocks, however the stock of the Lynx was based on the stock of the Garand, which I believe is quite suitable for melee combat. A bayonet lug, while I would love this rifle to have one, would damage the reputation of the weapon. That's a "scary" feature, so it'd draw attention to the weapon, which is exactly what I don't want. Which is, by the way, why I made the primary melee weapon on this rifle the buttstock, to kind of compensate for the lack of a bayonet.
This rifle would be marketed as a "hunting" rifle, and distributed as such. If it were ever fitted with polymer stocks, they would be in woodland camo or something not black (pink!?). The point is basically to continue to have capable military rifles in the hands of citizens up until the point when we really can't take it any more.
If I were to go with a non-military caliber, I'd go with either .260 Remington or a caliber I (sort of) designed. It's basically just .280 British with the case slimmed down to the same diameter as the 7.62x39mm, retaining performance using more advanced powders (like the 6.8 SPC).

 

[Rifleman 173]

Nice looking rifle. Now which caliber(s) will it be made in? I would think that a rifle like that would do well in the 6.8 SPC caliber or the 6.5 Grendel caliber. I would NOT try to make it in the 7.62 X 39 cartridge because then you would merely be doubling what the SKS does. You could always try for a .270 Winchester that shoots semi-automatic fire.

 

[308sc]

looks like a sks mixed with an m-1 garand

 

[elmerfudd]

It needs to be easily capable of mounting optics. Many citizens don't have the greatest eyesight and all modern fighting rifles should be capable of mounting NV equipment. A simple rail along the top would allow for attaching iron sights, scopes, red dots and NV.

I like the idea however.

 

[Soap]

Why in the heck are we even considering designing rifles to meet some asinine ban? I have my Citizen's Rifle, it is called an AR-15.

The time spent on these drawings would have been better spent writing letters, making phone calls and lobbying your elected representatives. Or Organizing and motivating your friends and neighbors to do the the same.

The people we are dealing with won't be appeased. No gun you could ever design would be OK by their standards as long as it was in the hands of one of us peasants. So if you must design rifles, design them for VICTORY, not appeasement.

SMLE is right!

 

[bannockburn]

Nolo

How about the HK SL 6/7 rifles? Based on the proven HK 91 design in a non EBR package.

 

[MAKster]

If the purpose of this exercise is to design a rifle that will be least likely to be banned then you need to drop the semiauto requirement. All of the previous and proposed bans are focused on semiautos. The least likely to be banned would be a bolt, lever, or pump action. Maybe something like the Remington pump action rifles. Polymer stock, detachable mags, site mounts, and relatively quick to cycle.

 

[bannockburn]

MAKster

Something like the Remington Model 7615 then?

 

[Nolo]

Nolo

How about the HK SL 6/7 rifles? Based on the proven HK 91 design in a non EBR package.

Wow. That's almost exactly what I was envisioning. Very, very close. Doesn't appear to have modularity, though. But, then again, it was designed a long time ago.

If the purpose of this exercise is to design a rifle that will be least likely to be banned then you need to drop the semiauto requirement. All of the previous and proposed bans are focused on semiautos. The least likely to be banned would be a bolt, lever, or pump action. Maybe something like the Remington pump action rifles. Polymer stock, detachable mags, site mounts, and relatively quick to cycle.

I came to that conclusion earlier as well, however a couple of things stopped me from going that avenue:
-Those design paths appear to lead me to rifles that pretty much already exist (though I've already run into some of that here), such as the Enfield, Marlin 336, and the aforementioned Remmy pumps (especially the 7600, assuming we could fit, say, an FAL magazine).
-The rifle would need to have characteristics compliant with the second-latest ban of the period when one would estimate a violent revolution because the latest ban would be ignored due to armed fighting breaking out.

 

[BBroadside]

I think you are a fine artist, Nolo.

You wrote: "If it were ever fitted with polymer stocks, they would be in woodland camo or something not black (pink!?)" Interesting thought ... what's a color for polymer that the easily-scared wouldn't be scared of? How about a fake wood pattern? It would be the station wagon of rifles. Maybe gray? Sell it in white in Northern areas as "snow camo". On the whole I'm thinking a neutral khaki may be best. Of course, I'm just brainstorming, I don't really think any of this stuff matters.

I have mentally searched for the same thing a few times, and all I could come up with was the Remington 7400, modified to accept detachable magazines. How inexpensive and reliable such a conversion would be, I don't know. Also, a Rem 7400 would have open sights (which militaries don't seem to use any more) and it's out of production, replaced by the 750, which seems a few hundred $ more.

Tell me more about "with provisions for magwell modifications to suit caliber, mission and firearm bans" ... does that mean it would need an interchangeable barrel and bolt face for temporary caliber changes, or are you talking about permanent modifications? The former would be quite an interesting feature, but I really have no idea what is practicable. (Edit: this question was answered by your talking about modularity.)

The other day I was thinking, "What would really pass all the bans would be a nice semi-auto, non-detachable mag, in a good medium caliber along the lines of .30-30 (only rimless), with a non-scary wooden stock." Fail! I had serendipitously "invented" the SKS, which is often banned by name in anti-gun legislation. (I think Michael Douglas mentioned it The American President as an example of something he wanted to ban, but couldn't because of that darn gun lobby.)

So I guess my "thought experiment" was interesting even though it wasn't exactly successful. Should the pro-2nd amendment forces fail, and stuff gets banned, pretty much any semi-auto can get the axe. It wouldn't be so bad to fall back on bolt- and lever guns from a purely shooting standpoint, except that obviously the legislation wouldn't stop there, and soon those would be banned too.

"Whatcha keep that slingshot for, citizen?" Chills.

 

[Nolo]

Tell me more about "with provisions for magwell modifications to suit caliber, mission and firearm bans" ... does that mean it would need an interchangeable barrel and bolt face for temporary caliber changes, or are you talking about permanent modifications? The former would be quite an interesting feature, but I really have no idea what is practicable.

Well, caliber shortages are a fact of life for a fledgling army, which is of the sort we'd be dealing with if the SHTF, so I added separate magazine, barrel and bolt face assemblies so that you could change from 5.56/.223, 7.62x39, 7.62x51/.308, 6.5x39, 6.8x43 and 7x43 (which is a proprietary round that I sketched up). The rifle would be offered in all of these calibers, and, with simple changes, could be retrofitted for any of them. I wanted capability similar to the Masada in a rifle that wouldn't make the anti-gunnies piss their pants. Because if they do, they tend to pass legislation against it. I'm all for noncompliance, but I'd like to keep things legal for as long as possible. And I think this rifle takes me for as long as possible (shoving us back to 130-year-old technology? Not possible).

 

[Patrick_Henry]

Nolo,
OK, a couple of things I'm thinking...What about putting peep sights on it? That would give a greater accuracy level with iron sights in a situation where optics might not be much of an option and secondly, why not make this in a nonmilitary caliber so that it would be a "hunting rifle"? I do like a lot of the interchangeability on this thing though... I am definitely one to fight for the RKBA, but regardless of why your designing this I think it has potential to be a really cool gun!

 

[BullpupBen]

I like the idea, but how is this any different than any other semi-auto hunting rifle that feeds from a ten round magazine?
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=97118887

Remington 742 as an example

 

[SaMx]

The idea of an affordable semi auto rifle that is legal in all 50 states is worthwhile, even if some people are upset about the idea of designing guns to comply with bans.

sure it doesn't necessarily do anything a CA legal M1A, but the idea is to be cheaper.

I would say the saiga would meet the objectives, aside from a wood stock and being american made.

 

[armoredman]

Are there any stock replacements for the Saiga 308?

 

[cluttonfred]

I have to say that, while I admire the concept, I think the project would need to become much simpler to be practical. A rugged, simple hunting-style rifle with an integral magazine holding ten rounds or less but standard charger guides for stripper clips would be great. Think sporterized SKS or SKS-ized Mini-14/30 in a selection of calibers (say .223, 7.62x39mm and .308 to start, maybe .243 for countries that ban military calibers). Your concept is great, but I think it looks too expensive to actually meet the goal because a citizen's rifle, either self-bought or for emergency militias, must be inexpensive and easy to built quickly. Maybe the Volksturmgewehr could provide some inspiration?

 

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Great. So you drew a sketch of an FN-49.

 

[brentn]

Thats awesome!

Too bad you couldn't get particular people to help you out with all the different parts for manufacture so that you can actually make one for yourself! There are a few guys who have made copys or their own firearms that are pretty darned neat on another canadian forum I frequent. One of them was a copy of a STEN but altered so that it was not a variant, but looked the same. It was the legal way to own one, and it was pretty neat. Up here the sten is prohibited..

 

[Funderb]

the m1 garand is banned in the new AWB.

 

[Nolo]

OK, a couple of things I'm thinking...What about putting peep sights on it? That would give a greater accuracy level with iron sights in a situation where optics might not be much of an option and secondly, why not make this in a nonmilitary caliber so that it would be a "hunting rifle"? I do like a lot of the interchangeability on this thing though... I am definitely one to fight for the RKBA, but regardless of why your designing this I think it has potential to be a really cool gun!

The sights on this rifle are the same (essentially) as the Garand. Which, if I'm not much mistaken, has peep sights. I mentioned before (a couple times, I believe) the "7x43" round. This is essentially .280 British with the case diameter reduced to 11.3mm (the same as 7.62x39mm), but retaining the same performance (139gr at ~2550 f/s) thanks to modern powders. Being a nonmilitary caliber, it would be a fine choice.

I like the idea, but how is this any different than any other semi-auto hunting rifle that feeds from a ten round magazine?

How many of those hunting rifles do you know of that would be as cheap as an SKS, be able to change calibers with a simple disassembly, take 30-round magazines, and have a removable trigger group that can be replaced with a full-auto group?

sure it doesn't necessarily do anything a CA legal M1A [can't do],

See above.

I have to say that, while I admire the concept, I think the project would need to become much simpler to be practical. A rugged, simple hunting-style rifle with an integral magazine holding ten rounds or less but standard charger guides for stripper clips would be great. Think sporterized SKS or SKS-ized Mini-14/30 in a selection of calibers (say .223, 7.62x39mm and .308 to start, maybe .243 for countries that ban military calibers). Your concept is great, but I think it looks too expensive to actually meet the goal because a citizen's rifle, either self-bought or for emergency militias, must be inexpensive and easy to built quickly. Maybe the Volksturmgewehr could provide some inspiration?

How is it not simple? Oh, and it has standard charger guides, they're on the front of the bolt, like the SKS, but they're hidden under the front part of the receiver when the bolt is closed. I really should have copied my spec guide and shoved it in here on my first post.

Great. So you drew a sketch of an FN-49.

On the second drawing? Yes. Well, an FN-49 with a 20-round box mag. (which I believe the Argentines actually had in 7mm)
But we're not talking about the second drawing. We're talking about the first.

Too bad you couldn't get particular people to help you out with all the different parts for manufacture so that you can actually make one for yourself! There are a few guys who have made copys or their own firearms that are pretty darned neat on another canadian forum I frequent. One of them was a copy of a STEN but altered so that it was not a variant, but looked the same. It was the legal way to own one, and it was pretty neat. Up here the sten is prohibited..

I wish...

 

[Nolo]

By the way, here's 7x43 (.280 Orion):

 

[lionking]

Nice drawing.


But as far as citizen's rifle I say it is suppose to be whatever a person decides he wants it to be.Realistically it is the AR-15,go to a range and you'll more often see more of those than any other rifle.And I doubt most of the owners would turn them in if they were banned from ownership,just wouldn't see them at the range much anymore.


Unlike Britian and Australians,Americans will be less inclined to turn them in for melting down,and I wonder how many Brits and Aussies actually stashed away instead.

 

[Patrick_Henry]

If these ever start being produced let me know...

 

[Nolo]

I will, Mr. Henry.
And I love your sig.