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The handgun market is not a duopoly

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by ATLDave, Aug 11, 2017.

  1. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    There seem to be a lot of people who think that, if one expresses concern or disappointment regarding the (surely soon-to-be-remedied) Sig P320 drop-fire issue, it must reflect an allegiance to Glock.

    Newsflash: There are more than two manufacturers of semi-automatic handguns. There are even some people who own neither a Sig nor a Glock pistol. Not everyone is out to either "get" or "support" Sig or Glock.
     
  2. Jack B.

    Jack B. Member

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    Count me as one of those people that don't own either. :eek:
     
  3. ColtPythonElite

    ColtPythonElite Member

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    Same here
     
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  4. stu1ritter

    stu1ritter Member

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    Count me as one of those people that wouldn't own either.

    Stu
     
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  5. TomJ

    TomJ Member

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    I own both, as well as handguns from six other manufacturers and rifles or shotguns from eight manufacturers. I love them all, and they've all been fantastic otherwise I wouldn't hold onto them. We're fortunate to be living in what I believe is a "Golden Age" of firearms. There's no shortage of quality manufacturers and guns to choose from at reasonable prices. I could never understand people who get worked up because someone else bought a different gun, car, etc. than them. If what you buy works for you and you're happy with it, I'm truly happy for you even if I chose something else.
     
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  6. Mitlov

    Mitlov Member

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    My handgun of choice is a Ruger revolver, so I have no dog in this fight. I'm just following the Sig issue because I work with LEOs (I'm not one myself) and the story began as a LEO safety issue. I'm also following the Ford Police Interceptor carbon monoxide issue for exactly the same reason. Not because of any animosity toward either Sig or Ford.
     
  7. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    I'm following it because I shoot in USPSA and run a weekly match. The P320's have a bit of a following in that sport, so it's relevant to me even though I don't own one. I also don't own a Glock. I generally prefer the guns of others around me not to discharge if they drop them for rather obvious reasons.

    I think the P320 is kind of a neat design, so I hope they get this solved satisfactorily and promptly.
     
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  8. Fiv3r

    Fiv3r Member

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    I'm anxious to see what SIG says and does to fix the issue.
    Not because I want to see them squirm. Not because I am Team Glock. The SIG 320 is the finest shooting polymer pistol I have owned. I want to see them address it because I want them to not only address the safety issue but also inspire confidence that SIG is a stand up company that will do the right thing. Furthermore, for selfish reasons, I'd like to see them make an already incredible gun even better.

    The SIG 320 is why up until Wednesday I had cleared out all of my other full/duty sized poly pistols save for the SIG. It simply made all of the other ones obsolete for my needs.

    I want SIG to come out of this on top. I want anyone who has inclination to own a 320 feel confident in the safety of their weapon. I'm very much team SIG.

    If I am overly critical of the situation, it's because I expect a lot out of this company because I am a fan of their product, not because I want to watch a train wreck while polishing my Glock 19.

    Now, I've stopped carrying the 320 for the time being. I'm eager to see how SIG rolls out the modification, and I'll be sending my gun back for an upgrade in due time.

    Meanwhile, because doesn't take much to enable me, I purchased a Ruger RAP in .45 as a duty size pistol that won't break the bank. I elected to go with the .45 because I have total faith that SIG will have me packing my 9mm in short order.

    I like the RAP, but it's not my SIG. The trigger isn't the same and is bladed, the grip panel creaks a bit, and the rather fat butt gives me RAP knuckle when I fire it without holding it a specific way. Still $400 for a tank. Not bad.

    I only bring it up because I want to show that I am a gun guy. Not a Glock guy or a SIG guy or a Ruger Guy.

    I want everyone here to have and enjoy shooting whatever their brand of choice is. There is plenty if room for everyone at the table. I just want to make sure that my favorite pistol is as safe to carry as possible.
     
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  9. JR24

    JR24 Member

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    I like them all (except Taurus).
     
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  10. wally

    wally Member

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    I own Glock, SIG, M&P, HK, Walther, and Taurus polymer pistols. I like them all, admittedly some better than others, hint Glock is near the bottom -- I just don't shoot them well, Gen4 was an improvement for me, but ultimately I shoot the old 1911 best of all.

    But it looks as if I've got four Taurus pistols and one SIG that will be going back for failing drop tests. Took a class action lawsuit for Taurus to do anything about it. Hopefully SIG will be better.
     
  11. Danoobie

    Danoobie Member

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    Sig Sauer is trying to remedy it's AD problem, at least. But segregating folks into two
    camps seems a little narrow sighted.
     
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  12. Elkins45

    Elkins45 Member

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    I own Sigs, but not a P320. I own Glocks but have made an informed decision to not carry a striker fired gun as a PDW. I will carry one in the woods and there's one on my nightstand.

    If Crimson Trace made a laser for the CZ P-07 it would be the perfect carry gun.
     
  13. Mike J

    Mike J Member

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    I don't own a Sig or Glock. I don't think I have even posted to any of the threads about this although I have been watching the situation closely. I want to see it resolved. I did post a link to Sigs statement about the P320 on their website & the TheTruthAboutGuns video where they were drop testing it on my facebook page. I did this not to slam Sig but I have a number of facebook friends that I know from work that like & own guns but don't necessarily frequent these boards. I put it out as an attempt to give anyone that might own one a heads up.
     
  14. kozak6

    kozak6 Member

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    I don't own either, but I could see myself with a Sig someday, P320 or otherwise.

    Glock's ergonomics are a deal breaker for me. Seems like they're a couple decades behind at least. I dislike rabid Glockoholics more than the pistols, though.
     
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  15. ritepath

    ritepath Member

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    The truth is lots of people refuse to acknowledge there's more than one manufacture. It's those people that cause the rest to be lumped into the glocker only club.

    If not for CZ I'd have a 320 compact in my safe, I love the trigger and the fact it doesn't have that goofy dingus like so many striker guns.
     
  16. Tirod

    Tirod Member

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    They didn't miss it, they have fixed it, yet the questions keep coming.

    "When did you stop beating your wife?" seems to be the central tactic in this campaign, if you are missing that then perhaps it's time to step back and reflect on ALL the facts.

    the (surely soon-to-be-remedied) Sig P320 drop-fire issue,

    They didn't miss it and the fix was to be announced when they were ambushed. This is the kind of misleading talk I've been reading on the net, and worse. The "soon to be remedied" part is already out there, it's current, not in some distant future. The "drop fire issue" doesn't exist in the technical sense because it passed not only industry standards but when extra testing was conducted and it WAS discovered THEN SIG took steps to not only fix it but did.

    The real problem is that we will now start seeing other makes being experimented with in non scientific ways, and sadly, other makers will be revealed to have drop safety issues when their guns are thrown on concrete floors or beat with hammers. Think about that - since when is that part of the protocols, who would even do that, and why publish it?

    Video gun commandos generating clicks for their profitable channels on youtube.

    Your being taken for a ride in almost every way possible at SIG's expense.

    If they will do that against SIG, then they will not stop to do it to your favorite. Expect it. Your's is next. Mob rule is now governing this.

    We have met the enemy and he is us.
     
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  17. Hangingrock

    Hangingrock Member

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    The grip panel on my example of the RAP45 creaks also but not a problem with the RAP9.
     
  18. RUT

    RUT Member

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    Well said Tirod...I couldn't agree more!
     
  19. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    Tirod, I just could not disagree more thoroughly.

    First, more truthful information is better than less. I would even go so far as to say that a great deal of what is "wrong with the world today" is that unwelcome facts that conflict with our pre-existing notions are not merely ignored or disregarded (that's not new), but are affirmatively attacked as being harmful despite their truth. Given that the same result has been replicated by numerous different testers, few (if any) of which have any sort of demonstrable reason for bias against P320's, there doesn't seem to be any issue of whether this is "fake news" with rigged tests.

    Second, the significance of these tests seems self-evident to almost everyone in the firearms community. A 4' drop is not an unrealistic event. It is an inevitable event for a mass-marketed gun sold as a duty and carry weapon. If "industry standards" don't currently detect a gun's ability to fire from a 4' drop at whatever angle, then those industry standards are insufficient. The fact that Sig has designed a revision to eliminate this problem indicates that they agree.

    Third, this issue is remedied when the guns are fixed (barring those in the hands of those who refuse to send them in, although the risk to others inherent in those guns will sadly remain). Announcing a fix is not a fix. Part of the fix is solving the engineering challenge. Sig appears to have that done. Another part is meeting the logistical, manufacturing, and cost challenges for rolling out that fix to all the products in the marketplace. Just look at the Takata airbag recall... that's still going, years later. Designing replacement airbags was, in many ways, the easy part. Getting millions of vehicles into garages, finding production capacity to crank out millions more replacement airbags in factories built to meet ongoing demands, etc... that's the hard stuff. Sig still has to clear this hurdle. I have high expectations that they will, and not just because I think they're a reputable company. The market demands it. If Sig wants to exist in 10 years, they'll figure it out.

    Fourth, this is all good. Anti-gun people love to make a lot of BS claims.
    • One of these claims is that guns shouldn't be allowed in public because they will just "go off" if they're dropped. Well, modern carry-suitable guns generally don't, and especially not in a muzzle-up situation. The last thing we need is to have hundreds of thousands or millions of modern guns out there that will do precisely that.
    • Another frequent BS anti-gun claim is that gun manufacturers are uniquely immune to product liability suits for defective goods. That's baloney. They have protection against frivolous suits that seek to hold manufacturers responsible for the intentional misuse of their product - something that doesn't even need to be spelled out for every other kind of product because it is so obvious. All the same, regular rules of product liability apply for guns when it comes to design issues.
    • A closely related piece of nonsense is the idea that the firearms community and market are so ignorant and/or so tribal that they cannot police themselves. This is one of the arguments made in favor of more regulation (such as requiring smart guns or internal locks): "That market is failing, it doesn't even demand safe products like a rational, functioning market - time to regulate!" Well, the firearms market actually does function fairly efficiently. Consumers want multiple things from firearms, but a degree of safety consistent with the dangers inherent in firearms is typically one of them. Here, the market is demanding a reasonably drop-safe gun.... and it's going to get it, sooner or later. I hope it's sooner.
    Fifth, as to the notion that Sig was "ambushed," this is both false and irrelevant. It is clear that various agencies and individuals brought this issue to Sig's attention, including via a lawsuit, well before the current crop of video testing came out. If Sig didn't know this was coming, it was simply because they misjudged the gun-interested public. They were not "ambushed." Moreover, they way to avoid being "ambushed" with complaints about your product is not to make products that have a demonstrable, serious problem. If you want to sell to the general public, you need to either do the testing necessary to make sure you don't have problems (irrespective of whether that testing is "industry standard" or not), or prepare to be "ambushed." It happens in every industry.

    Finally, as to "If they will do that against SIG, then they will not stop to do it to your favorite," you assume I have some favorite. I buy guns that suit my purposes and that are of interest to me. I don't owe any kind of allegiance to any gun manufacturer. If a manufacturer whose products I have purchased in the past (which includes Sig, FWIW) turns out a product that has a safety issue, I will want to see that issue addressed. And the same will be true if it's a manufacturer whose products I have not purchased in the past. I'm not on anyone's "team." If a firearms company wants blind loyalty from me, they'll have to pay me for it; people who have "favorites" and are on Team ___ after they, as the customer, pay for the privilege baffle me. (I also don't have Yeti stickers on my car... maybe I'm just weird.) If a gun that I own and like has a serious safety issue, I hope someone does make a video about it - so that I can process that information and make rational, fully-informed decisions about what to do.

    Fundamentally, I think you are confused about what "mob rule" is. A group of consumers freely communicating information and then making their market desires and expectations known is not "mob rule" unless all capitalism is "mob rule." I think the market works most of the time. It's working right now. It is exerting hydraulic pressure on Sig to actually resolve this problem. That's good. There's nothing to despair about here.
     
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  20. huntsman

    huntsman Member

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    Brand loyalty for plastic guns is amusing, not much originality in the market. Duopoly? More like similarly with just enough smoke and mirrors to fleece the buyers.
     
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  21. vba

    vba Member

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    I own H&K's, 1911's, Sig (classic series, aluminum frames), revolvers and Rugers of all sorts. I've got no allegiance to Glock.

    Was never impressed by the P320. The trigger is too easy to pull for a gun with no safety and the bore is too high above the hand.

    Now with the proven drop test firing, I'm really not interested. Sig was trying to out-Glock Glock and screwed up. The claim to fame being one does not have to pull the trigger to disassemble. So what, I've owned Glocks for nearly 30 years and have not had a problem. It's so simple a caveman can do it (hint the chamber must be empty).

    I will hold on to my P228, P220, P226 and P225.
     
  22. Hokie_PhD

    Hokie_PhD Member

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    I don't like the feel of Glocks and just am not a big Sig fan although my ex was. In fact she would only shoot Sigs.

    I'm not partial to any brand. I have a Kel-tec that has been rock solid, I also have Springfield and Smith & Wesson.

    Fit and finish on the later two brands is much better but all shoot well if I do my part.
     
  23. lysanderxiii

    lysanderxiii Member

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    Just how many SIG have been reported to have unintentionally gone off from being dropped?

    Is it a high number indicating it is a real problem? Or is it zero, indicating it is not?

    Personally, I am more concerned with the high number of ND that occur with Glocks. (Too light and too short of a trigger pull.)

    (not counting the ones "test" ones on youtube)
     
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  24. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    Lys', you appear to have entirely missed the point of my OP. I'm not a fan of Glocks. Glocks have nothing to do with this issue. This is about a duty gun that is not drop-safe in a drop circumstance that is inevitable given enough use. A broader question about whether short-trigger-pull guns without safeties (which includes Glocks AND most P320's) are good is a whole 'nother topic.
     
  25. Hokie_PhD

    Hokie_PhD Member

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    I didn't read that as off topic, rather asking how big the issue was.

    I for one haven't heard about the issue until your post. So I too am curious as to how many drop fires have been reported. The last part of that was an aside but semi relavinat IMHO

    Anyway how many have been reported. Asking from someone who doesn't have a dog in this fight
     

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