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The handgun market is not a duopoly

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by ATLDave, Aug 11, 2017.

  1. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    1) Vast majority of rank and file soldiers carry their sidearms with an empty chamber unless "outside the wire" on patrol. That eliminates a good majority of possibility of the M17/18 going off when dropped at the exact right angle to cause it to fire. 2) Many soldiers also carry their firearms on a lanyard or dummy cord, further reducing the chance of the firearm hitting the ground to cause a misfire. 3) And finally the M17 does not suffer the same drop safety defect as an off the shelf P320 (according to SIG). This whole deal is making a mountain out of a mole hill.

    I don't own any Glocks or Sigs. As a duty weapon they are about the same on what I would want in a service firearm. You get issued what you get issued. Service members will complain about it either way. Because there is no choice in the matter. If I were still in, and given the choice, I would go with the Sig any day over a Glock.
     
  2. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    Herr', I share your understanding that this issue does not exist with the M17 model - though primarily because the intervals are "upgraded" and don't have this issue mechanically. FWIW, I am perfectly happy with the military selecting a P320 with the features of the M17. Makes sense to me.

    This is about the model sold by the thousands to cops and civilians that will spend a lot of time being carried in condition 1.5 or 0 or whatever you want to call a striker-fired gun with no external safety and a loaded chamber.

    The evidence now is that those guns will discharged if dropped from a moderate height and happen to land on the back of the slide, which is not that odd a circumstance. Multiple testers have replicated this issue. That needs to be fixed, as Sig appears to acknowledge.
     
  3. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    Nobody knows that answer to that question. We know it is more than zero. We know that the issue can be replicated fairly reliably. It's obviously an issue. Doesn't mean Sig is a bad company or that a revised P320 isn't a good gun.
     
  4. jdc1244

    jdc1244 Member

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    The psychology of this is interesting, telling, and very human.

    Sig owners, fans, and defenders fear that this will reflect poorly on the company, damaging Sig somehow – where people will stop buying the product.

    There’s also concern that this will reflect poorly on Sig owners, who’ve exhibited ‘poor judgement’ by owning a Sig.

    None of this is true, of course, but it’s interesting nonetheless.
     
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  5. Sergei Mosin

    Sergei Mosin Member

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    That's why, if I were going to own a P320 (which I may yet, after the dust settles) it would be the version with a thumb safety.
     
  6. Jack B.

    Jack B. Member

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    I'm not in LE or any other high pressure environment. Not going to be. But I have never dropped a gun I my gun handling years(over
    50). I don't buy guns that are touted as drop safe as I don't intend to drop one.
     
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  7. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    What I'm getting out of this is really just a click bait like whine fest. You don't like either of the major .mil contenders and wanted to have a bunch of like minded others pile on. Why whine about something so trivial in your life? Nobody is going to make you buy either of them as a civilian, and if you're a soldier or LEO where you'll be issued one or the other, then holding the presumption you'd have any choice at all in the matter is misguided or delusional.

    A shooter shouldn't be choosing their firearm based on .mil contracts. The P320 is no more a better pistol today than it was before the contract, and no less of a great pistol after the results of the additional testing were revealed. I'm not narrow minded enough to only pick my semiauto pistols based on brand or material of construction - given my application needs, I pick the most suitable models for my physiology and desired feature set. I carry a Ruger most often, a Glock second most, compete most with Sig's and 1911's... My nightstand is about split duty between a G19 and a USP...

    This thread is a lot like saying: I don't like blondes or redheads... Man alive, if you're narrowing your scope only to brunettes, you're missing out on a lot of great pistols...
     
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  8. Danoobie

    Danoobie Member

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    IMO, many manufacturers have sold out and are imitating glocks, in order to
    get a share of the glock market. They won't even try to make a better design of
    their own, in the haste to turn a profit, at the consumer's expense. It's no secret
    I don't like glocks, how much more do I despise their copies. S&W, Beretta,
    Ruger, now even CZ are jumping onto the glock bandwagon, rather than
    create an innovative new design of their own.
     
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  9. Hokie_PhD

    Hokie_PhD Member

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    The S&W Sigma was criticized for being a Glock knockoff. The SD series was an improvement on the Sigmas. My first full sized pistol was an SD9 which isn't a bad gun. I liked the grip angle better than the Glock, and hated the awful Glock style take down. I also hated the fit and finish on the SD as it's clearly not as nice as am M&P, Springfield, Sig, etc.

    Upgrading to the M&P addressed all the things I didn't like about the SD while keep the things I liked. So IMHO S&W has done both, they've copied Glock in the Sigma and SD series but they've also competed and engineered alternatives that many of us think are better. Glock fans will disagree and that's their right, and why some of us buy M&P and other buy Glock, and yet others go totally other routes such as Sig, Beretta, etc.
     
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  10. wally

    wally Member

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    Danoobie and Hokie_PhD like this.
  11. BSA1

    BSA1 Member

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    (sigh) For 32 years we continue to hear or read discussions about slides breaking on Beretta 92's (and M9).

    Care to predict how long we will be hearing or reading about unsafe 320's (and M17) when dropped? :uhoh:
     
  12. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Member

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    Hopefully all the [sarcasm]wonderfully dexterous and well-trained individuals[/sarcasm] shooting at the range the same time you do (and especially when I do) espouse a different philosophy. Your amazing ability to never drop anything and your buying decisions won't have any effect on the outcome when the guy next to you at the range drops his pistol and the gun hits the pavement with the muzzle pointing your way.
     
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  13. I6turbo

    I6turbo Member

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    You're probably talking about a grip laser for carry, right? For a rail mount I'd expect the CMR-203 and CMR-206 to fit the P-07 just fine. Here's the 203 on my P-01. I've since switched it to the 206 which is a bit more compact and the beam is centered under the barrel. I highly recommend this setup for HD and general shooting enjoyment.

    CZ 75 P 01 w_CT CMR 203_zps5as06noo.jpg
     
  14. Hokkmike

    Hokkmike Member

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    If a gun (safe, reliable and accurate) and the manufacturer (customer service) treat me well then I am a FAN!

    Whom do I love? GLOCK (yes), FN, and SIG are my regular dates. I would do a dance or two with S&W or Colt. Taurus, Rossi, and a few others have not been invited to the party...

    ALL BRANDS have issues from time to time. It is how the manufacturers react to them and treat their customers that matters.
     
  15. Berger.Fan222

    Berger.Fan222 Member

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    I think I heard that one action pistol event in N GA has banned the Sig P320. If you run a weekly match, it is a choice worthy of consideration.

    Yep, just confirmed that Derek Giddings out at River Bend has banned the P320 in 3 Gun out there. I'm not advocating one choice or another, just passing along info that I believe is reliable and may be useful.
     
  16. Berger.Fan222

    Berger.Fan222 Member

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    Certainly greater care in handling will likely reduce the probability of dropping things, but I am extremely hesitant to accept the notion that one can reduce the probability to exactly zero, especially for something that is handled every day for decades. As one ages, one's focus, fine motor control, and dexterity all tend to decline. I'll probably drop more stuff in my 70s (God willing I live that long) than I did in my 30s. Already dropping more stuff at 50. Just because I haven't dropped a firearm does not mean that it is impossible if I live long enough.

    Over time, one's probability of other events also increases (simply due to more time, not because the rate has increased). Will an auto accident, fall, or other physical jarring of the whole body be sufficient to force the gun out of the holster? Will one become engaged in a short distance force encounter with a thug where one ends up grappling for a pistol? It is well documented that people are at much greater risk of falling as they age.
     
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  17. lordhamster

    lordhamster Member

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    Sig was Ambushed?

    First of all, even TODAY on Sig's Voluntary update FAQ webpage they said:
    Is my P320 safe in its current configuration?
    Yes. The P320 meets and exceeds all US safety standards. However, mechanical safeties are designed to augment, not replace safe handling practices. Careless and improper handling of any firearm can result in an unintentional discharge.

    Secondly, the same morning that the Omaha test was released, they were very loudly and CLEARLY stating that the pistol was drop safe and that the whole issue was a fabrication. Bruce Gray posted himself on Page 5 of the thread over on Sigforum where he reiterated his and Sig's position on the matter (bold and underline added by me for ease of reading):

    I and others knew this entire thing was ******** from the start, but the author of this hyped up and apparently fabricated non-story from an "anonymous source" was not interested in hearing verifiable information, on the record.
    And, for that record, there has never been a verified instance of any P320 firing when dropped out of the nearly 350,000 sold to date, much less a factory-spec pistol.
    I have looked for such reports and followed up on everything I find, for three solud years. It hasn't happened.
    The recent YouTube video pupirtibg to show a "P320 drop test" failure is an obvious fake.
    I have personally bounced these puppies off of everything I can find. No go bang, ever.
    This crap needs to be dismissed. The P320 is safe.
    -Bruce


    Designer and custom pistolsmith at Grayguns Inc. Privileged to be R&D consultant to the world's greatest maker of fine firearms. Now: Get some Lucas Extreme Duty Grease from Top Gun Supply and SIG Pro Shop, dammit! And remember: MOAC is coming again in 2017!



    Visit us at http://opspectraining.com/product-cat/videos/ to order yours, and Thank You for making GGI the leader in custom SIG and HK pistols.

    Bruce Gray, President
    Grayguns Inc.
    Grayguns.com / 541-468-3840



    Sorry for the above language, this is a direct copy/paste and not my language

    We continue... after the Omaha tests and dozens of others came to light:

    Ron Cohen, CEO of Sig said:
    “Drop safe,” Cohen explained, “Those two words don’t exist together. No gun is drop safe. It’s a function of angle, height and surface. If you build it completely drop safe, you legitimize mishandling. Inherently guns are not meant to be dropped, and are unsafe when dropped.”
    http://soldiersystems.net/2017/08/0...-unaffected-announces-voluntary-p320-upgrade/
     
  18. Skylerbone

    Skylerbone Member

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    I'm fairly confident someone will rebutt my thoughts on this and so I will qualify them as healthy skepticism. I work in city government. My father is a retired LEO, having worked for 3 police agencies over a 30 year career. You hear things. Others, like facilities maintenance workers corroborate. Our old police station had a dozen or so holes from NDs, many occurring before they went to semi-autos (92FS was the first). The 5 year old new digs has had 2 NDs already.

    To the skepticism: I read the above report pertaining to the first lawsuit and it sounds suspiciously like "Glock Leg" to me. As for whatever investigation that was or wasn't conducted, who knows. Write it up one way, your fellow officer gets disciplined or dismissed. Change a few details and he's a hapless victim, with no thought to the ripple effect that follows.

    I'm not suggesting a deep conspiracy against SIG, only that once a shadow is cast a company's reputation never fully recovers. Once a rumor, no matter how crazy is spread, well we all know about Richard Gere, ceramic Glocks that pass through metal detectors, and curving bullets.

    Drop testing wasn't spawned to keep us safe, it was the brainchild of anti-gunners. Period. It took California a full 90 years to realize all 1911s without a firing pin block were ticking time bombs. Someone foolish enough to own one probably owns a Chevy S-10 as well.

    I appreciate manufacturers striving to keep us safe. I appreciate it even more when their method isn't a 14 lb trigger pull. As firearm owners we should always recognize the potential danger and exercise diligence in handling. Nothing will ever be foolproof from pencils to tacks to paper; yes 3 common school items that cause daily injuries in schools across the country but without bans or lawsuits.

    No, I don't own a Sig (or Glock for that matter).
     
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  19. wally

    wally Member

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    Trivial forensics, if "Glock Leg" the bullet will be on a downward trajectory in the leg, if the gun fired when dropped at an ~30 degree angle from the vertical like shown in the tests, it will be on an upward trajectory in the wound channel.
     
  20. Skylerbone

    Skylerbone Member

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    Wally, I understand the ballistics would be different, but what we know is that "the bullet entered below his knee and lodged to the side..."

    Doesn't say "lodged to the side of his upper thigh" or indicate specifics as to angle. The complaint also alleges the pistol was fully secured in a mid-thigh Safariland holster, same model as pictured below. Being bolstered in that position makes for an excellent alignment with the entry point of the bullet in question if the officer were removing the pistol from the holster at the time. Moreover, can anyone explain how the pistol's slide could have contacted the ground if it were correctly holstered as he claims?

    Now I'm not discounting the possibility of a failure but this is the only case of an AD I know of from the Sig outside of YouTube videos. Those that were successful in firing from a drop did not do so with the pistol in an L III retention holster.

    IMG_4816.jpg
     
  21. lordhamster

    lordhamster Member

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    Read the lawsuit, it is posted online multiple places. It specifies that:
    1. The pistol was HOLSTERED when it went off. This is verified by forensics
    2. The would channel was upwards with the bullet entering below the knee at an upward trajectory
    3. The whole incident took place on video tape according to the CT law review.
    4. Houston PD has been able to replicate this issue in their own testing that yielded a 10% failure rate. http://www.chron.com/news/houston-t...-prone-to-faulty-firing-leads-to-11748309.php
    5. Sig themselves has admitted they are aware of 1 civilian and 3 non-civilian AD cases.
    At this point a legal document submitted by a sworn officer of the law and backed up by forensics, video and affidavits from others is about as good as we will ever get for "proving" this happened.

    We also now have another VERIFIED case of a dropped pistol firing like this... one that was dismissed out of hand last year. https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?27008-P320-drop-safety-issues&p=638532&viewfull=1#post638532

    As for the assertion that drop safety is spawned by anti-gunners... that assertion couldn't be further from the truth.
    Unless John Moses Browning was anti-gun:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browning_Hi-Power

    OR Unless of course the US Navy in 1948 can be considered anti-gun:
    http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/99903-victory-model-safety-issues.html
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2017 at 2:07 PM
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  22. ClickClickD'oh

    ClickClickD'oh Member

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    Lol, oh ye of little history knowledge. CZ has been in the polymer striker pistol game for two decades.

    As for the duopoly thing... yeah, that's true and all, but as has been recently demonstrated in the other threads, if you keep the loudest voices talking long enough, they will eventually tell you there's no good semi auto pistol unless it comes with a NY1 trigger... and there's only one manufacturer out there with that option. Not to mention it's pretty much a running joke around here that no matter what gun you ask for an opinion on, within a dozen posts, someone will tell you to just get a Glock. So, yeah, there's plenty of truth behind the scourge of the Glockaholic.

    They are just tools. If one is in the shop, use another. Fixate on one at your own expense.
     
  23. stchman

    stchman Member

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    What gets me is that this is Sig Sauer's FIRST striker fired pistol and they didn't shamelessly copy a Glock. Walther, H&K, Ruger, Canik, Beretta, Springfield, CZ, etc., did. Since Glock has been making striker fired guns for over 30 years, copying them might not be the worst idea. If you look at a lot of other striker fired pistols, most have that Glock style trigger. There has to be a reason. I'm not a gunsmith, but I do understand physics and the concept of inertia.

    When Ruger released the SR9 back in 2008, they used a solid trigger and had to recall them and installed a Glock style trigger. The body of evidence is out there. Why did Sig Sauer feel the need to re-invent the wheel?
     
  24. lordhamster

    lordhamster Member

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    Frankly I think they listened to the multitude of internet commandos who have been complaining about the trigger dingus for decades.
     
  25. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    Or the non-internet-commandos who don't like the flipper. I don't think commando status or "commando" status comes from having one opinion or the other on the flipper.

    But, yes, there are a non-trivial number of people who don't enjoy the flipper.
     

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