1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Pretty much 'cause it's ugly...
The Hi-Point Throwdown
- Thread starter Justin
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Pretty much 'cause it's ugly...
Rail Driver
Member
1911Tuner said:
So's the Kriss Carbine, the Springfield XD, GLOCK anything...
Hi-Point gets bashed because they're ugly and inexpensive. I've noticed that a lot of "gun snobs" think that if you can't afford to drop more than a couple hundred bucks then you don't deserve to buy a gun. (IE the "buy locks or food instead" comment in this thread)
As mentioned before, it's similar to anything... "you suck because you drive a ford taurus" "you suck because you rent a townhome rather than owning a 4 bedroom house on 10 acres" "You suck because you shoot a hi-point instead of a kimber"
It's not going to end... People have a competitive instinct as well as a very self serving and greedy nature that few ever truly conquer. Common sense (and our parents, ideally) tell us that "If you don't have anything nice, informative, or substantive to add, then keep your trap shut." but when the time comes that someone buys, or thinks about buying that hi-point, people come out of the woodwork to tell them how bad the gun is, how much better their kimber, colt, glock, s&w, etc is than the hi-point, and most of the people bashing the hi-points have never handled, fired, or owned one because "they're junk".
I hear about "Pot metal guns" but the truth is, the slide on a hi-point is made from an alloy of zinc, copper, aluminum and magnesium that holds up very well to the blowback operation of a hi-point. Bring me a pot made of zamak-3 in the package from a store and I'll hand over my gun collection. The Hi-points aren't made from pot metal, even if it's not stainless steel or hard chrome. In any case, the point is moot as the high-stress components in a hi-point are made from quality steel (barrel and other small parts such as springs and pins). The main reason hi-points are referred to as "pot metal guns" is because the zamak alloys (there are several, though zamak-3 is the most widely used) are called "white metal" or "pot metal" although they're not used for pots, but rather in die casting (one form of zamak is used to cast the rollers that are used to manufacture sheet metal).
Finally, do a google search for 'catastrophic pistol failure images' and you'll sift through hundreds of pictures of damaged, broken and destroyed glocks, 1911s and smith and wessons before you'll see a single cracked hi-point slide, much less anything worse. If the company really sold junk, they wouldn't still be in business.
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1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Preachin' to the choir, RD. I've been stickin' up for Hi-Points for some time now.
Rail Driver
Member
No doubt, 1911Tuner. I'm glad my first gun was a hi-point. It was an effective learning tool, and like any tool, there's a use that it was designed for: to fire a bullet. Sure I'm glad I have something that does that while looking a little nicer now, but I wasn't ashamed to own a hi-point, and I would again as well as recommending the hi-points to beginning shooters (especially those on a budget).
I can think of at least 2 GREAT benefits to making a hi-point your first gun... They're inexpensive and the weight of the gun helps a LOT in soaking up that recoil. Really helps to ease someone into shooting when they're not afraid of their pistol rearing back and blasting them in the forehead like in so many youtube videos of idiots with guns
I can think of at least 2 GREAT benefits to making a hi-point your first gun... They're inexpensive and the weight of the gun helps a LOT in soaking up that recoil. Really helps to ease someone into shooting when they're not afraid of their pistol rearing back and blasting them in the forehead like in so many youtube videos of idiots with guns
"Pretty much 'cause it's ugly... "
I still don't see where it's any uglier than a host of other more expensive autoloaders. Then again, to my eye, beauty comes with a "wheel" not a magazine. In any case, my point was the gun deserves a little more respect than it appears to get. It's a decent gun at a great price. Period. If your reason for purchasing is to have a range or hd gun, I think this fits the tasks quite well. If your looking for CC, this may not be the best choice. At the end of the day, it's the best deal going for $150 NIB.
Detractors; go ahead and bash, you just sound silly to those of us who respect a functional, "quality" gun that fits our needs at a price that pleases our wallets.
I still don't see where it's any uglier than a host of other more expensive autoloaders. Then again, to my eye, beauty comes with a "wheel" not a magazine. In any case, my point was the gun deserves a little more respect than it appears to get. It's a decent gun at a great price. Period. If your reason for purchasing is to have a range or hd gun, I think this fits the tasks quite well. If your looking for CC, this may not be the best choice. At the end of the day, it's the best deal going for $150 NIB.
Detractors; go ahead and bash, you just sound silly to those of us who respect a functional, "quality" gun that fits our needs at a price that pleases our wallets.
valorius
member
Clearly the pistol is perceived as being big, ugly, crude, and cheap.
christcorp
Member
People bash for a lot of reasons. If a gun obviously sucks, there's no need to bash. Everyone pretty much agrees that it suck. Once in a while you get a NOOB asking advice, and people say stay away from such and such. No one disputes it, therefor there's no bashing.
However, with the hi-point, there is another factor involved which leads to bashing. EGO!!! Most will not admit or agree, but it is human nature and it is true. When it comes to strictly talking about a home defense weapon; also used in a vehicle, camping, boating, etc...; as well as plinking and simply having fun; people have a real hard time justifying and rationalizing their $500-$1000 gun when someone bought one for $150 that does everything just as well as the $500-$1000 gun. Hard to swallow that.
That's not to say that the hi-point is equal in ALL capabilities or in all areas of quality. But for the purpose for which the hi-point was built and sold, people have a hard time justifying all the extra money they spent. So of course, they have to start bringing up all the capabilities that the hi-point lacks or sucks at. Of course, they don't want to hear that those are areas that the hi-point was not intended for. They'll talk about conceal carrying. They'll talk about it being heavy or ugly. They'll talk about it only having a 10 round magazine. Or about them being in a "GUN FIGHT". (Like they are in a Lethal Weapon Movie). All of these things are designed to detract from the purpose of the hi-point, and when used for what it was designed for, the $800 gun is not WORTH $650 more. It may be worth the extra money for all the OTHER CAPABILITIES, but not for the basic capabilities that a hi-point is designed to accommodate.
And that's why there's bashing on a hi-point and not a Bryco-Jennings. Almost everyone agrees that a Bryco-Jennings is not something you really want to trust your life with. Albeit it is better than nothing. The hi-point on the other hand is a gun that people actually "RECOMMEND". And for the person who simply wants a Home Defense gun, or similar, and wants to go plinking, practicing, and have a little fun; the hi-point is a very good choice. But the person who spent their $600+ for basically the same reason, will need to feel that they received something more for their extra $500-$800. They did, but then you get into comparing apples with oranges.
However, with the hi-point, there is another factor involved which leads to bashing. EGO!!! Most will not admit or agree, but it is human nature and it is true. When it comes to strictly talking about a home defense weapon; also used in a vehicle, camping, boating, etc...; as well as plinking and simply having fun; people have a real hard time justifying and rationalizing their $500-$1000 gun when someone bought one for $150 that does everything just as well as the $500-$1000 gun. Hard to swallow that.
That's not to say that the hi-point is equal in ALL capabilities or in all areas of quality. But for the purpose for which the hi-point was built and sold, people have a hard time justifying all the extra money they spent. So of course, they have to start bringing up all the capabilities that the hi-point lacks or sucks at. Of course, they don't want to hear that those are areas that the hi-point was not intended for. They'll talk about conceal carrying. They'll talk about it being heavy or ugly. They'll talk about it only having a 10 round magazine. Or about them being in a "GUN FIGHT". (Like they are in a Lethal Weapon Movie). All of these things are designed to detract from the purpose of the hi-point, and when used for what it was designed for, the $800 gun is not WORTH $650 more. It may be worth the extra money for all the OTHER CAPABILITIES, but not for the basic capabilities that a hi-point is designed to accommodate.
And that's why there's bashing on a hi-point and not a Bryco-Jennings. Almost everyone agrees that a Bryco-Jennings is not something you really want to trust your life with. Albeit it is better than nothing. The hi-point on the other hand is a gun that people actually "RECOMMEND". And for the person who simply wants a Home Defense gun, or similar, and wants to go plinking, practicing, and have a little fun; the hi-point is a very good choice. But the person who spent their $600+ for basically the same reason, will need to feel that they received something more for their extra $500-$800. They did, but then you get into comparing apples with oranges.
valorius
member
I do not have a hard time justifying the extra money i spent in the slightest. I believe that my chosen sidearms are clearly superior to the hi point for what i need them to do.
Simple as that.
Simple as that.
DustyVermonter
Member
I love the ugliness, I would never try to make someone feel bad about buying a hi-point, to me it looks like a tool, I think a good knife and a High-Point .45 with a couple mags is a great defensive tool combo, and a country boy will survive
DustyVermonter
Member
Sure beats walkin out with your **** in your hand, don't ya think? I think people with Kimbers puke at the thought of somebody getting a shot off quicker than them with their High-Point while their Kimber gets snagged in their $230 shark skin holster. Hi-Point is not my weapon of choice by any means but this thread has me thinking of taking $250 and puttin together an emergency kit to stash somewhere, Hi-Point .45, knife, first aid, MRE's, $50 bill,etc....not a bad idea
DustyVermonter
Member
I'm gonna get a Hi-Point and get 'Ultra Elite' engraved on the slide and head to the range with it to watch people break their necks to turn and see my highly customized 'High-Point custom Ultra Elite'. Besides, Hi-Points and Hi-Powers are the same thing, just a slightly different name.
I've followed this thread with some interest for a while now.
There are some here who I recognize from other forums, including Hi-Point forums and others whom I recognize from other forums and even a few whom I consider knowledgeable and whom I respect a lot.
If you see my posting name then you'll see that I am an owner of a Kimber 1911 (2 of them actually) along with many other makes and including a Hi-Point.
When my son wanted to get into shooting I purchased two C9's. One to try out for myself and one for my son as a starter gun. I had heard good and bad about Hi-Points and figured that I would see for myself.
The Hi-Point is inexpensive and the warranty is outstanding. Hi-Point rebuilt my C9 after several years of use. I have had friends who have liked the looks of my C9 over some of my other guns and though I consider it to be somewhat ugly it is no uglier than some other guns.
Too heavy for CC? No.
I don't have a scale but I think that the specs will show that my Kimbers weight more and that my SR9 with a full magazine will weigh more.
Reliability and durability issues? No.
It goes bang when you pull the trigger and when my C9 was worn I shipped it back to the factory where they did a complete rebuild free of charge.
Is the Hi-Points low capacity an issue? No.
The capacity is the same as my more expensive 1911's and not as high as my SR9 but then again, how many plan on getting in a situation where you need 18 rounds and how many actual situations in the past have required that many rounds.
Hi-Point vs Milsurp. I have two Milsurps, a Makarov and a Radom P64. Both are lower capacity and lower powered than the C9 with less ammo choice and availability as well as difficulty getting parts and no warranty whatsoever.
Appearance? Who cares if it works when you need it to. My son bought a Millenium Pro after having his Hi-Point for awhile, he wanted more bling. After a few range sessions the MP sits locked up while the HP is his shooting gun, he likes the HP better. He also has a very good job, even in these tough economic times and can afford pretty much what ever gun he wants. His two favorites are his "cheap pot metal guns" his Hi-Point C9 and his $300 AK.
Hi-Point vs higher end guns.
They all go bang. Some of the guns may be more accurate but in my hands I cannot tell, they all hit what I'm shooting at. The higher end guns do have a nicer fit and finish and some do have better ergonomics. Not everyone can afford the better fit and finish or the better ergonomics.
For those of you who can appreciate and afford better guns, don't be afraid of a Hi-Point. It's only $150, a fraction of some of your expensive toys, surely you can afford to "waste" that much.
I recommend Hi-Points to people.
There are some here who I recognize from other forums, including Hi-Point forums and others whom I recognize from other forums and even a few whom I consider knowledgeable and whom I respect a lot.
If you see my posting name then you'll see that I am an owner of a Kimber 1911 (2 of them actually) along with many other makes and including a Hi-Point.
When my son wanted to get into shooting I purchased two C9's. One to try out for myself and one for my son as a starter gun. I had heard good and bad about Hi-Points and figured that I would see for myself.
The Hi-Point is inexpensive and the warranty is outstanding. Hi-Point rebuilt my C9 after several years of use. I have had friends who have liked the looks of my C9 over some of my other guns and though I consider it to be somewhat ugly it is no uglier than some other guns.
Too heavy for CC? No.
I don't have a scale but I think that the specs will show that my Kimbers weight more and that my SR9 with a full magazine will weigh more.
Reliability and durability issues? No.
It goes bang when you pull the trigger and when my C9 was worn I shipped it back to the factory where they did a complete rebuild free of charge.
Is the Hi-Points low capacity an issue? No.
The capacity is the same as my more expensive 1911's and not as high as my SR9 but then again, how many plan on getting in a situation where you need 18 rounds and how many actual situations in the past have required that many rounds.
Hi-Point vs Milsurp. I have two Milsurps, a Makarov and a Radom P64. Both are lower capacity and lower powered than the C9 with less ammo choice and availability as well as difficulty getting parts and no warranty whatsoever.
Appearance? Who cares if it works when you need it to. My son bought a Millenium Pro after having his Hi-Point for awhile, he wanted more bling. After a few range sessions the MP sits locked up while the HP is his shooting gun, he likes the HP better. He also has a very good job, even in these tough economic times and can afford pretty much what ever gun he wants. His two favorites are his "cheap pot metal guns" his Hi-Point C9 and his $300 AK.
Hi-Point vs higher end guns.
They all go bang. Some of the guns may be more accurate but in my hands I cannot tell, they all hit what I'm shooting at. The higher end guns do have a nicer fit and finish and some do have better ergonomics. Not everyone can afford the better fit and finish or the better ergonomics.
For those of you who can appreciate and afford better guns, don't be afraid of a Hi-Point. It's only $150, a fraction of some of your expensive toys, surely you can afford to "waste" that much.
I recommend Hi-Points to people.
"Clearly the pistol is perceived as being big, ugly, crude, and cheap"
Perception of looks.... I'll give you that based on personal preferences.
Perception of crude and cheap.... obviously those who have owned/used them overwhemingly refute that sort of statement.
Perception of looks.... I'll give you that based on personal preferences.
Perception of crude and cheap.... obviously those who have owned/used them overwhemingly refute that sort of statement.
Onward Allusion
Member
I was right out of college and paying off my student loans 20-something years ago when a "pot-metal" FIE Titan prevented great harm from my wife, her friend, and me one night. Hi-Points are many notches above a FIE Titan so if that's all someone can afford, I don't see the problem. They can protect themselves and their loved ones with a decent weapon.
David,
My C9 had about 12,000 rounds through it. I determined that it needed to be sent in due to slide wear. BTW-The slide wear was my own fault for not seating the slide retainer pin completely when I tore the gun down for a thorough cleaning.
Hi-Point said that they replaced the slide, barrel and a few other items, almost everything except the frame.
Here is the kicker though: Hi-Points have flash marks on the plastic and I had trimmed the excess off of my C9. When I got the gun back there was excess flashing on the plastic again.
I think that they replaced the entire gun and just put my s/n on the new gun. Everything was new, slide, barrel, frame, everything.
Hi-Point was aware that the wear on the slide was my fault, they didn't care, they just took care of the problem better than expected with no questions or hassles.
I have other guns that I like better but Hi-Point service is second to none.
harmon rabb
Member
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2009
- Messages
- 2,699
Hi-Point service is legendary for not caring that you're the 4th owner, and for fixing issues (even replacing the entire gun) caused by the owner. Reload, and blow up your Hi-Point with a squib load followed by a round that works? You could tell them exactly what you did and they'd still replace it.
I've read all kinds of stories like this. It's pretty surprising really.
I've read all kinds of stories like this. It's pretty surprising really.
valorius
member
Hardly, but you need to be able to apply common sense thinking to the questions you're asking. Most answer themselves that way.
Clearly a Hi Point is an enormous pistol that would suck for CCW, my primary concern with a pistol.
Clearly the Hi Point is totally inappropriate for deep concealment/pocket carry.
Clearly a Hi Point pistol is a poor selection for home defense compared to any reasonably appropriate long arm.
Frankly, for most buying Hi Points, they would be far better served to skip the pistol models, and go straight for the 995 carbine.
Is this anecdotal, or just common sense?
I sometimes CCW the Hi-Point, it is smaller than my 1911's and smaller and lighter than my fully loaded SR9 so it is doable for CCW and negates your third thought. For many people who would purchase a C9 it might be their only weapon, CCW, HD, or vehicle.
That's what common sense tells me for a great many Hi-Point owners though not all.
valorius
member
Clearly there are far superior pistols for CCW than a 1911 Gov't model as well. It is a very large, heavy pistol.
I have held SR9's in my hands many times, they are much flatter than a Hi Point pistol- so are 1911's for that matter. Flatness being one of the single most important features in a carry gun. 'Excessive' weight is actually much easier to deal with in a CCW gun with a proper holster. I think the poster just stated that CCW-ing a Hi Point is "doable," not that it was by any means a good choice for that role, or that it was in any way superior to 1911s or SR9s in that role.
There are pistols that are far superior for CCW than a Ruger SR9 or 1911 Gov't model too, by the way. Like my P7 for instance- a very compact 9mm pistol with magnificent safety features and laser like accuracy at any kind of real world gunfighting range. It is a very solid CCW gun, but there are better selections than my P7 as well, seeing as it is quite heavy for it's compact size. (A P7 is dimensionally very similar to the new Walther PPS, but about 10oz heavier).
I stand by my statement that Hi Points suck for CCW. There are many pistols on the market that are clearly superior for CCW.
I have held SR9's in my hands many times, they are much flatter than a Hi Point pistol- so are 1911's for that matter. Flatness being one of the single most important features in a carry gun. 'Excessive' weight is actually much easier to deal with in a CCW gun with a proper holster. I think the poster just stated that CCW-ing a Hi Point is "doable," not that it was by any means a good choice for that role, or that it was in any way superior to 1911s or SR9s in that role.
There are pistols that are far superior for CCW than a Ruger SR9 or 1911 Gov't model too, by the way. Like my P7 for instance- a very compact 9mm pistol with magnificent safety features and laser like accuracy at any kind of real world gunfighting range. It is a very solid CCW gun, but there are better selections than my P7 as well, seeing as it is quite heavy for it's compact size. (A P7 is dimensionally very similar to the new Walther PPS, but about 10oz heavier).
I stand by my statement that Hi Points suck for CCW. There are many pistols on the market that are clearly superior for CCW.
There are a few pistols that have broken into "long gun capability", namely the FN Five Seven, MP-7, MP-5 PDW, and a few others, but for the most part you are correct. So what i was trying to say there is that if you want a hi point for home defense, skip the pistol models altogether, the 995 is far superior in that role. Sorry i was not more clear in that point...but that's the point i was driving at.
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achildofthesky
Member
247 posts and still waiting on the next installment from the OP...
Of course no handgun can compete with a shotgun..
HUH?
NO handgun can compete with a 12 gauge or rifle (long gun) so that has nothing to do with a Hi Point, and I've not seen anyone claiming otherwise at all??????
"Clearly that is opinion" LOL
What was meant was that a person may not be able to afford a handgun and shotgun and then the handgun might be more versatile. It could be carried, kept in the vehicle or kept on the night stand.
One can't carry a shotgun or keep it in ones vehicle.
As stated. If I can carry my SR9 with 18 rounds or a full sized 1911 then I can carry a Hi-Point.
I never stated that the Hi-Point was better for CC or any other role. I said it was affordable and could serve several different roles for those on a tight budget.
I personally know people who are saving their money for a Hi-Point they cannot afford several weapons for different roles nor weapons that make for a better CCW. They do however still deserve the right and the ability to protect themselves and their families.
Let's look at it this way. If someone has to struggle to save enough for a Hi-Point then they are most likely residing an area that probably isn't as pleasant or safe as where you live and just might need that inexpensive weapon more than you may need your pricier weapon. Or perhaps you might feel that those less fortunate have no right for self protection?
I remember hearing something along the lines of "The right to keep and bear arms" and it never mentioned income or socio-economic status that I recall.
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valorius
member
Agreed that you could certainly carry a Hi Point pistol if your wardrobe and the weather allow for it, but if you had an 18rd Ruger SR9 at your disposal, you would not consciously choose to carry a Hi Point over your Ruger except in very unusual circumstances.
It's like a Chevy Cavalier. You can off-road or race a Cavalier, but why? God invented 4x4's and Porsche's for a reason. Just as he invented Cavaliers for a reason.
All i'm saying is that while the Hi point serves a very useful niche role, it is just that: A niche weapon. On it's own merits it is not competitive with other niche weapons unless you are placing an over-riding importance on entry cost.
To say that a Hi Point pistol is as good as a HK P7 for CCW, or as good as a FN Five Seven for battlefield use, or as good as a target pistol for target use, or as good for home defense as a 18rd Ruger SR9 as mentioned above is just not accurate. To imply that a person with a niche use like one of those i just mentioned would be as well armed with a Hi Point as they would with it's much higher priced competitors is just not reasonable, and quite frankly, is dangerously bad advice IMO.
A Hi Point can be pressed into service as a CCW piece, or a home defense piece, or as a target piece, or even as a battlefield sidearm, but it's going to be at a huge disadvantage to weapons that are designed specifically for those purposes. How can't it be? For what a Hi Point pistol or carbine is designed to be, it has NO peers in it's niche....it's niche being the cheapest possible entry price for a poor American to give himself a reliable means of multi-shot defense with a firearm.
To me, a $150 995 9mm Carbine offers a level of defense FAR in excess of the expenditure of cash required to own one, and is far more sensible a home defense selection if one can truly only afford a single firearm. Honestly i would rather have a 995 Carbine than a $2000 1911 for home defense/SHTF if it was my only firearm.
It's like a Chevy Cavalier. You can off-road or race a Cavalier, but why? God invented 4x4's and Porsche's for a reason. Just as he invented Cavaliers for a reason.
All i'm saying is that while the Hi point serves a very useful niche role, it is just that: A niche weapon. On it's own merits it is not competitive with other niche weapons unless you are placing an over-riding importance on entry cost.
To say that a Hi Point pistol is as good as a HK P7 for CCW, or as good as a FN Five Seven for battlefield use, or as good as a target pistol for target use, or as good for home defense as a 18rd Ruger SR9 as mentioned above is just not accurate. To imply that a person with a niche use like one of those i just mentioned would be as well armed with a Hi Point as they would with it's much higher priced competitors is just not reasonable, and quite frankly, is dangerously bad advice IMO.
A Hi Point can be pressed into service as a CCW piece, or a home defense piece, or as a target piece, or even as a battlefield sidearm, but it's going to be at a huge disadvantage to weapons that are designed specifically for those purposes. How can't it be? For what a Hi Point pistol or carbine is designed to be, it has NO peers in it's niche....it's niche being the cheapest possible entry price for a poor American to give himself a reliable means of multi-shot defense with a firearm.
To me, a $150 995 9mm Carbine offers a level of defense FAR in excess of the expenditure of cash required to own one, and is far more sensible a home defense selection if one can truly only afford a single firearm. Honestly i would rather have a 995 Carbine than a $2000 1911 for home defense/SHTF if it was my only firearm.
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