This illegal infestation is out of control

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(1) Remove incentives. No welfare, food stamp, healthcare unless you are a U.S. citizen.
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Absolutely, though I'd rather remove such things completely.

(2) Secure the border. Build a fence, wall, moat, whatever and man it with people to watch for incursions. Return border jumpers to Mexico
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Do you realize that they never managed to secure the Berlin Wall? People trying to cross it faced literally being shot on sight, and it was only a few miles long. It had guard towers with machineguns, searchlights, barbed wire, minefields, and the image of the USSR depended on it being impassible. people still got through.

The US-Mexico border is somewhere around a thousand miles long. There is a lot of legitimate traffic that must be allowed through, and Stalin gets elected here, the Border Patrol can't just shoot first and not bother with any questions.

(3) Provide arms and training to those opposing the corrupt Mexican regime. Encourage them to overthrow the existing Mexican government and help them replace it with an honest democracy.
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Ignoring the fact that all actual governments are corrupt and the Mexican one will be easily corruptable as long as the War on Drugs exists, this is a rediculous idea. How much success has the US had in overthrowing governments in the past? Let's see...Panama isn't exactly a paradise. Cuba is still run by Castro. We have a huge military deployment in Iraq to do exactly this, and the place isn't quite what you'd call an "honest democracy." Iran isn't very chummy with the US. Afghanistan kinda backfired.

Yeesh, there'd be a better chance of success if we simply invaded and declared Mexico the 51st state. :rolleyes:
 
Let's see...Panama isn't exactly a paradise. Cuba is still run by Castro. We have a huge military deployment in Iraq to do exactly this, and the place isn't quite what you'd call an "honest democracy." Iran isn't very chummy with the US. Afghanistan kinda backfired.
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But democracy has to start somewhere. If it's not given a chance to start, it will never take hold, it has no chance.


People trying to cross it faced literally being shot on sight, and it was only a few miles long. It had guard towers with machineguns, searchlights, barbed wire, minefields, and the image of the USSR depended on it being impassible. people still got through.
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But it sure as heck cut down the traffic!


The US-Mexico border is somewhere around a thousand miles long. There is a lot of legitimate traffic that must be allowed through, and Stalin gets elected here, the Border Patrol can't just shoot first and not bother with any questions.
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Very true. But you can have X amount entrances that are manned, if you don't come through those, you don't get in. At least not at will.
 
I guess it was simple curiousity that brought me back to this post , knowing I would likely be irritated rather quickly by doing so.

I see that there are still those active posters trying to convince everyone that illegal imigration is not a problem, or not a problem that we should try to fix, or just something that we should indorse because citizens of this country are just too lazy to work, so we should welcome the unchecked labor source .

The last figure dollar wise I have seen is that the state of California alone estimates a cost of about $10 billion a year to give services to illegal aliens. Mostly the cost is health care, and education from what I recall. Now maybe that number is incorrect or off by some amount, but I have yet to see any numbers that indicate that illegals are an asset to the citizen taxpays of this country. Maybe someone can give me some of those hard facts that say otherwise. I'll wait for those , please don't insult me by pulling numbers out of your hat, or giving me a bunch of theory or opinion. Illegals in this country are either an asset or a liabilty from a monitary standpoint. Which is it ? and where are the facts.

One of the issues hitting home for me is the seeming lack of concern for fellow citizens by those who come up with all the excuses why we should continue to allow illegal immigration. It seems they don't care what it cost their neighbors - they are willing to pay, it seems, but they aren't concerned that you have to pay also. No loyalty to fellow citizens even though they are the ones that also pay the taxes, fight the wars to help keep us as free as we are, and who's fathers and grandfathers worked to build this nation.

We do have a "legal" immigration policy , but apparently they don't think that is good enough. Again, making decisions for all of us with no regard to our laws, our pocketbooks, or our wishes.

I heard it suggested that even if we want'ed to we couldn't stop the increasing numbers of illegal border crossings. I consider that hogwash. Make it a felony to hire and illegal worker with a penalty of $10,000 fine and a minumum of 12 months jail time, and inforce it. Wether your the one hiring an illegal to clean your house or the CEO of a company, that felony charge with manditory jail time would make a difference. That's my opinion, and guess what , that, I think, is the penalty for breaking federal firearms laws. ( just as a reference )

I don't think it would be all that difficult , or cumbersume to require proof of citizenship in order to receive certain services , such as medical care (except emergency), food stamps, education, having your child born here and automaticaly be a citizen, get a job, etc. Hell, we have to be run through a FBI background check, and proof of who we are, including fingerprinting in some states, in order to get a permit to carry a firearm. Even though the bill of rights specifically states that we have the right to keep & BEAR arms.

Maybe a compromise is needed. All those who favor unchecked border breaches can sign up on a federal list. Those who want to cross the border but don't want to go through the bother of legal immigration can do so if a citizen on the list will sponser them. Give them living quarters, food, pay for their education and medical expenses until they have work and can provide/pay for all of those services themselves.

We have determined through the process of legal immigration the number of non citizens that we can handle in this country - if you want to pay for more - be my quest by developing such a system.

And for you that will certainly use the race card in this argument - find a more intelligent way of justifying your position. I don't care if it is hispanics, or Sweds we're talking about from a ethnic standpoint. The problem lays where it does , and it's not in racism , it's in right or wrong.
 
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Maybe a compromise is needed. All those who favor unchecked border breaches can sign up on a federal list. Those who want to cross the border but don't want to go through the bother of legal immigration can do so if a citizen on the list will sponser them. Give them living quarters, food, pay for their education and medical expenses until they have work and can provide/pay for all of those services themselves.
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+1 on this idea. Open/minimal border proponents can put their money where their mouth is.
 
Waitone: Hokay.

Back 30 and 40 years ago, when the number of wets coming into Texas was so much smaller than it is today, there seemed to be three types coming over.

One group was merely wanting to get jobs, to send money home; they'd work up here for six to eight months and then go home. Another group worked toward getting some sort of legal papers in order to become permanent residents. The third group, usually identifiable by city clothes, lace-up shoes and a lot of pomade on their hair*, was headed to a city like San Antonio or Odessa to hook up with some cousin and get on the dole.

Art

* "He goes to the barber shop to get his oil changed."
 
An open response to HankB:

Sir, that is an argument and response that I can respect, and yes, by that definition, all illegals are criminals. I also like that you responded by saying that they are not all violent criminals. I am sure that we still disagree, but I can appreciate and respect your viewpoint, especially since Wikipedia is credible (or, at least, credible enough for me).

For the others, who opted to make fun of my typing skills, whats the matter? Afraid to rise to the challenge like HankB did? As opposed to presenting your opinion in a reasonable, intelligent fashion, you instead resort to insults? My enter key works fine, and if you don't like the way I type these responses, thats fine as well. I would point out that I have not insulted anyone in my responses however passionate they are, and besides, you read the post. For the third and last time, I am going to point out that I am actually for a better mousetrap vis-a-vis immigration. I don't like illegals coming in and taking jobs from Mexicans that are here legally (and, by and large, thats the group that they are taking jobs from) or anyone else. What I will not do, and what I absolutely will not stand for or with is this attitude that these people are somehow subhuman or not worth a drink of piss. I believe strongly that this is flat out wrong, and I will argue and post poorly written missives until I am blue in the face on that topic. You wanna get down on the portion of these people that are in jail? Hell, I got no problem with that, but they are no worse than any other racial group thats in jail. You wanna hate the criminal, hate the criminal, but don't try and convince me or anyone else that somehow Mexican criminals are worse than any other criminal. I can grok the logic that since they are here illegally, that makes the crime worse, and to a certain degree I even agree with that logic, but I will not lower myself to taking that portion of the illegal population and using them as a benchmark from which to judge the rest of the illegal population. HankB is right, they are here illegally, and sure enough, thats a crime, and I agree with him 100% on that (not sure how I could do otherwise, in fact). I am just saying that an intelligent solutions are needed for this problem, and mining the border isn't intelligent or a solution.
 
You wanna hate the criminal, hate the criminal, but don't try and convince me or anyone else that somehow Mexican criminals are worse than any other criminal.
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They are no worse, they just happen to be the ones illegally coming here in droves. Maybe you don't like hearing that but it's true.

BTW, you live in a real nice city.
 
I am just saying that an intelligent solutions are needed for this problem, and mining the border isn't intelligent or a solution.
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Fencing and mining the border IS a solution to the flood of illegal aliens into our nation. Couple that with elimination of benefits from the public dole like tax payer supported health care, education of their kids and the like, and it will help reduce the number who are successful or even consider crossing. You don't like the ideas, lets hear some of YOURS.
 
TimboKhan, while many of us agree that there are many things that need to be changed in our laws that would reduce the demand for illegals as employees, and we agree that the majority of illegals are not bad people, consider a few facts as to the magnitude of the problem:

In the greater LA area, some 64 hospitals have been forced to close for economic reasons. The now-unemployed administrators say that it's the emergency-room non-pay by illegals that is the major problem. Plus, another 24 hospitals are in economic trouble.

Whoever keeps track of such data in California says that some 90% of outstanding felony-arrest warrants for crimes committed in California are for illegal aliens. That's a lot of crime, with two sets of costs: The public costs in police and courts and occasionally emergency rooms and ambulances; and the costs to the victims of the crimes.

What we're seeing is a hyper-inflation of the problems; it's now it's the incredibly large numbers of illegal aliens. It's easy to deal with a net influx of some thousands per year, but we just cannot afford the money for the problems of millions per year.

Well, if we can afford unlimited taxation, I guess we can afford it...

Art
 
Well, if we can afford unlimited taxation, I guess we can afford it...
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There it is Art, how many and how much can we afford, like it or not
even America must have limits.
 
haha... out of all the things that I expected to read regarding this thread, especially given the passion that this topic brings out,
BTW, you live in a real nice city.
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was about the last one I expected to hear. Thank you though, I do live in nice city, and I like it here alot.

Sindale,

You want to hear my solutions? Fine, let me give you one. Contractors, farmers, and whomever else has a need for and typically would hire an illegal alien should be given license to issue temporary work permits for their workers. The employer would be required to register the licenses immediatly, and would also be required to immediatly report when the worker is no longer employed. The worker would have, say, five days from the date of employment termination to either be issued another permit or to get out of the country.

Now look, I know that there are several problems with that idea, and its not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. My point is, it benefits the people who employ illegals, as they still get cheap labor, and it benefits the illegal because he can work safely and legally. By any measure, its a ton better than mining and fencing the border, which, in my opinion, is just nuts.
 
Thank you though, I do live in nice city, and I like it here alot.
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You're welcome. I like Ft. Collins.

My point is, it benefits the people who employ illegals, as they still get cheap labor, and it benefits the illegal because he can work safely and legally
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But they're still illegal and both breaking the law. All that does is enable the law breakers. Or did I miss the part about them become American citizens?
 
Contractors, farmers, and whomever else has a need for and typically would hire an illegal alien should be given license to issue temporary work permits for their workers.
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It's called a work visa and they are available to those interested in coming to the US as a "legal" migrant worker. The H-2A visa for example is issued for temperary agricultural workers.
 
Contractors, farmers, and whomever else has a need for and typically would hire an illegal alien should be given license to issue temporary work permits for their workers. The employer would be required to register the licenses immediatly, and would also be required to immediatly report when the worker is no longer employed. The worker would have, say, five days from the date of employment termination to either be issued another permit or to get out of the country.

Ok, that's something that I could handle but what about any expenses that the workers incur while they're here, will the employers or a sponsor handle those or will it be shifted to the taxpayer?

Those who want to cross the border but don't want to go through the bother of legal immigration can do so if a citizen on the list will sponser them. Give them living quarters, food, pay for their education and medical expenses until they have work and can provide/pay for all of those services themselves

Dynamite idea, once there is a background check to try to insure we're not bringing in criminals they can come and work for their sponsor.
 
A few modest suggestions . . .

. . . to curb illegals:

1. Eliminate benefits - NO in-state tuition for illegal alien college students, NO welfare, food stamps, AFDC, free schooling, etc.

2. Forget delayed hearings and arguments before a judge that have nothing to do with the person's status, one and only one question needs to be answered: is the person here illegally? As soon as a person is determined to be an illegal alien, he's taken into custody and out he goes, regardless of age, gender, or anything else. Period.

3. No automatic citizenship for children of illegal aliens, even if they're born here. (Note emphasis on the all-important word illegal.)

4. Fine employers of illegals. Heavily. The fines should start at the actual cost of incarceration and deportation of an illegal, and go up from there.

5. Discontinue all monetary Federal law enforcement, health care, and education assistance to cities that have enacted "sanctuary" policies which keep their police, teachers, and other city workers from arresting or even reporting illegal aliens. Perhaps even use federal law (can the RICO statutes be made to fit?) to criminally prosecute city officials that help protect illegal aliens from deportation.
 
HankB,

You laid it out. Now if we can just find someone, anyone, who will run on that platform...

We should not be running a country as great as this one by lurching from one response to a catastrophe after another but that seems to be what's going on, the inevitable result of declining common sense and a refusal to see problems as they are...
 
As regards my idea, under the work-visa, those illegals would be taxed so as to provide no burden to the taxpayer. Also, I am aware of work visas, obviously. my idea is that employers can immediatly grant a visa. This has the effect of immediatly making that worker a known quantity to the government. Look, I konw that this isn't a perfect idea, or for that matter, even all that great of one. I was asked to present a potential solution and I have.

Hank, again, I appreciate your arguments, and even agree with them. Thank you for being well spoken and reasonable as opposed to being extremist and ridiculous. Of your solutions, fining the employers is the only one that I have an issue with, only because I have to ask myself if the potential loss of those businesses due to fines is worth it. I know, its kind of a double-edged sword, because you want to get employers to stop hiring illegals, and I can see the logic there, but on the other hand, is potentially bankrupting a business worth it? But then, how often would that happen? Maybe it would be a good way to send a message to other employers. I don't know, but that particular one bears a little thought.

Timbo
 
But they're still illegal and both breaking the law. All that does is enable the law breakers. Or did I miss the part about them become American citizens?
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no, you didn't miss it. I don't believe that you need to be a citizen to work here anymore than the several hundreds of thousands of Americans who work globally need to be citizens of whatever country it is that they work in. I do believe that you need to be here legally to work, and my plan, however imperfect it is, provides for that.
 
By the way, if any of you are interested and don't know about him, check out Colorado senator Tom Tancredo and his views on immigration. One of his solutions is to use the military to protect the borders. I don't always agree with Tom, and I think using the military would be prohibitively expensive, but he does have some good ideas, and he is pretty pro-gun, as far as I know.
 
The average IQ in the United States is below average. Ok, "Asian" Guy, we get yer point.

I have seen some dicey post on THR, but is THR after all. People tend to take the High Road. Blatant racist propagandists don't fit in here. :rolleyes:
 
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