comeandtakeit
Member.
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2007
- Messages
- 46
This is illegal, right?
- Thread starter comeandtakeit
- Start date
- Status
comeandtakeit
Member.
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2007
- Messages
- 46
I thought is was illegal to put a handle on the foregrip if was a pistol.
Dionysusigma
Member
Fantastically illegal, since no mention of AOW is made.
Since the seller has no feedback, a major red flag is raised.
Since the seller has no feedback, a major red flag is raised.
Jim March
Member
Yup - SO LONG AS THAT FORWARD HANDGRIP COMES OFF. Well, not in California of course, but in most states and under Federal rules it's fine without the forward grip.
If it was chopped down to something like this from a rifle, it'd be big trouble.
If you stick a fixed (or folding) shoulder stock on it with that length barrel, it's illegal again (unless you pay special Fed fees). The soft strap shown is fine.
If you put a fixed or folding stock on it AND lengthen the barrel to 16", and otherwise make sure it's at least 26" overall (with folded stock if you go that way), you've converted it to a legal rifle setup and that's legal! And you can swap parts back to handgun any time you want - so long as the barrel shrinks below 16" when the stock comes off.
If it was chopped down to something like this from a rifle, it'd be big trouble.
If you stick a fixed (or folding) shoulder stock on it with that length barrel, it's illegal again (unless you pay special Fed fees). The soft strap shown is fine.
If you put a fixed or folding stock on it AND lengthen the barrel to 16", and otherwise make sure it's at least 26" overall (with folded stock if you go that way), you've converted it to a legal rifle setup and that's legal! And you can swap parts back to handgun any time you want - so long as the barrel shrinks below 16" when the stock comes off.
Dionysusigma
Member
Vertical fore-grip on a pistol!!!
Run away!
Run away!
Here we are: "Adding a Vertical Fore Grip to a Handgun
“Handgun” is defined under Federal law to mean, in part, a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand…. Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(29).
Under an implementing regulation of the National Firearms Act (NFA), 27 C.F.R. § 479.11, “pistol” is defined as a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).
The NFA further defines the term “any other weapon” (AOW) as any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition. 26 U.S.C. § 5845(e).
ATF has long held that by installing a vertical fore grip on a handgun, the handgun is no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. Therefore, if individuals install a vertical fore grip on a handgun, they are “making” a firearm requiring registration with ATF’s NFA Branch. Making an unregistered “AOW” is punishable by a fine and 10 years’ imprisonment. Additionally, possession of an unregistered “AOW” is also punishable by fine and 10 years’ imprisonment.
To lawfully add a vertical fore grip to a handgun, a person must make an appropriate application on ATF Form 1, “Application to Make and Register a Firearm.” The applicant must submit the completed form, along with a fingerprint card bearing the applicant’s fingerprints; a photograph; and $200.00. The application will be reviewed by the NFA Branch. If the applicant is not prohibited from possessing a firearm under Federal, State, or local law, and possession of an “AOW” is not prohibited in the applicant’s State of residence, the form will be approved. Only then may the person add a vertical fore grip to the designated handgun.
A person may also send the handgun to a person licensed to manufacture NFA weapons. The manufacturer will install the fore grip on the firearm and register the firearm on an ATF Form 2. The manufacturer can then transfer the firearm back to the individual on an ATF Form 4, which results in a $5.00 transfer tax. If the manufacturer is out of State, the NFA Branch will need a clarification letter submitted with the ATF Form 4 so that the NFA Branch Examiner will know the circumstances of the transfer. Questions can be directed to the NFA Branch or the Firearms Technology Branch."
“Handgun” is defined under Federal law to mean, in part, a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand…. Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(29).
Under an implementing regulation of the National Firearms Act (NFA), 27 C.F.R. § 479.11, “pistol” is defined as a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).
The NFA further defines the term “any other weapon” (AOW) as any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition. 26 U.S.C. § 5845(e).
ATF has long held that by installing a vertical fore grip on a handgun, the handgun is no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. Therefore, if individuals install a vertical fore grip on a handgun, they are “making” a firearm requiring registration with ATF’s NFA Branch. Making an unregistered “AOW” is punishable by a fine and 10 years’ imprisonment. Additionally, possession of an unregistered “AOW” is also punishable by fine and 10 years’ imprisonment.
To lawfully add a vertical fore grip to a handgun, a person must make an appropriate application on ATF Form 1, “Application to Make and Register a Firearm.” The applicant must submit the completed form, along with a fingerprint card bearing the applicant’s fingerprints; a photograph; and $200.00. The application will be reviewed by the NFA Branch. If the applicant is not prohibited from possessing a firearm under Federal, State, or local law, and possession of an “AOW” is not prohibited in the applicant’s State of residence, the form will be approved. Only then may the person add a vertical fore grip to the designated handgun.
A person may also send the handgun to a person licensed to manufacture NFA weapons. The manufacturer will install the fore grip on the firearm and register the firearm on an ATF Form 2. The manufacturer can then transfer the firearm back to the individual on an ATF Form 4, which results in a $5.00 transfer tax. If the manufacturer is out of State, the NFA Branch will need a clarification letter submitted with the ATF Form 4 so that the NFA Branch Examiner will know the circumstances of the transfer. Questions can be directed to the NFA Branch or the Firearms Technology Branch."
Jim March said:
not saying your wrong but can you tell me what ruling on this? my understanding a pistol is a pistol because of lack of stock and designed to fire one handed. im probibly missing something if seen before, but im drawing a blank
frogomatic
Member
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2007
- Messages
- 522
my guts tell me this isn't a legit seller. No feedback and selling a seriously illegal gun. How much you wanna bet it's a setup? And if it is, could be construed as entrapment? If it ain't then the guy selling it is in some serious poo-poo
Hoppy590 is right. A "pistol" can have a barrel as long as you want. It's when you get into firearms with stocks that you have to start worrying about barrel length. (16" for rifle, 18" for shotgun)
If my understanding of AOW's is correct, adding a forward vertical grip to a pistol creates an AOW -- which requires ATF paperwork. I don't know about whether or not it being detachable means anything or not.
Also... just as an FYI from some research I was doing for my own benefit. If one considers getting a shotgun as a Short Barrel Shotgun or AOW, there is one critical thing to consider.
If the shotgun was EVER a long gun-- but then is cut down-- it is a Short Barrel Shotgun. That means ATF paperwork as a Class III weapon and $200 tax stamp.
However, if the shotgun was made from a virgin receiver into a pistol, it is an AOW. This means ATF paperwork and a $5 tax stamp.
For instance...
If you get a Serbu Shorty Remington 870 created on a virgin receiver, you will have an AOW.
If you get a Hatcher "Snake Gun" which is a Stoeger Coach gun cut into a double barrel pistol, you have a Short Barrel Shotgun because it was originally a long shotgun.
Now, I assure you that Hatcher's cut-down Stoeger is NOT more lethal than a Serbu Shorty Remington 870. In fact, the Serbu holds 3 shots in a pump while the Hatcher obviously holds two.
The ATF is funny that way.
-- John
Prince Yamato
Member
It's probably just some dumb schmuck who doesn't know that just because you can physically put a vertical foregrip on a pistol doesn't doesn't mean you can legally put a vertical foregrip on a pistol. Poor guy's probably going to jail sometime soon...
Well if you were nice and do not take pleasure in seeing other people get into trouble you should send feedback to let the guy know do do something about it ASAP.
If the guy listens all is well. If he has an excuse or does not reply it is likely a setup and everyone that places a bid may find themselves in trouble. No reserve, so no minimum bid, started at .01 cent gives a good indication this seller may have more motivation for selling this than profit.
The no feedback could be a clue, though any decent agent could easily sell some legal items to build credibility so that does not really mean much.
Let him know, be a nice guy and inform him of the law. A link to the the applicable NFA law should be all he needs.
If the guy listens all is well. If he has an excuse or does not reply it is likely a setup and everyone that places a bid may find themselves in trouble. No reserve, so no minimum bid, started at .01 cent gives a good indication this seller may have more motivation for selling this than profit.
The no feedback could be a clue, though any decent agent could easily sell some legal items to build credibility so that does not really mean much.
Let him know, be a nice guy and inform him of the law. A link to the the applicable NFA law should be all he needs.
Crunker1337
Member
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2007
- Messages
- 1,168
Well you never know guys-it could have a 16" barrel that's transparent after the point where a normal barrel would end, thus making this gun a legal rifle.
This is a really illegal gun. Don't buy it, don't get involved in it, and just drop it and leave it alone or the man might come and burn your house down.
This is a really illegal gun. Don't buy it, don't get involved in it, and just drop it and leave it alone or the man might come and burn your house down.
It is actualy kinda sad that someone could get 20+ years and become a felon without even realizing it. Just by buying a cheap plastic handle and installing it on an existing rail as millions of people do with rifles with the same furniture.
Sliding that handle onto the rail makes someone suddenly cross over to the dark side. From naive gun owner to instant criminal felon, and not just any felon, one that is eligable for 20+ years. Transfering this thing across state lines has got to be an additional charge to not only possession and creation by sliding that piece of plastic down that rail, but also illegal arms trafficking etc
Just starting doing what has already been done on both buyer and seller side probably counts as conspiracy to commit all those crimes as well, which carries the same punishment as actualy doing them.
How dare he not spend hours of time researching laws and knowing that sliding the wrong piece of plastic on that rail is a big no no.
I mean don't we all spend hours learning every possible vehicle code after we buy a car? If changing your steering wheel was a felony you would have found the statute right?
What if changing the steering wheel is okay, but only if you add another mirror, but not if the car has more than 5 gears or is a sporty color?
Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
Sliding that handle onto the rail makes someone suddenly cross over to the dark side. From naive gun owner to instant criminal felon, and not just any felon, one that is eligable for 20+ years. Transfering this thing across state lines has got to be an additional charge to not only possession and creation by sliding that piece of plastic down that rail, but also illegal arms trafficking etc
Just starting doing what has already been done on both buyer and seller side probably counts as conspiracy to commit all those crimes as well, which carries the same punishment as actualy doing them.
How dare he not spend hours of time researching laws and knowing that sliding the wrong piece of plastic on that rail is a big no no.
I mean don't we all spend hours learning every possible vehicle code after we buy a car? If changing your steering wheel was a felony you would have found the statute right?
What if changing the steering wheel is okay, but only if you add another mirror, but not if the car has more than 5 gears or is a sporty color?
Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
However the AOW costs $200 to make, and $5 to transfer, but can never have a shoulder stock legaly installed. Meaning you cannot convert said shotgun into a shoulder fired weapon. Even adding a longer barrel I can see the "once an AOW, always and AOW" kind of response. Well the federal law states that it is not designed to be fired from the shoulder to qualify.
The short barreled version however costs $200 to make (so same as AOW), but $200 to transfer as well. Yet it will allow you to install a stock, take off the stock, put on various barrel lengths in any configuration etc. So it has a lot more freedom.
Then of course some states allow AOW, but restrict SBR/SBS or the reverse.
Oh another thing to consider is that an NFA item makes a bad self defense arm because being found guilty of any crime with it makes one eligable for a serious federal enhancement. So if in a defense shooting you beat most of the charges, but even some minor ridiculous one sticks that they just want to give you probation for, you become eligible for a 20 year federal enhancement.
Thain
Member
Not illeagal, just restricted. Pay your taxes and go have fun!
ilcylic
Member
So, what if you make the second foregrip stick out the side of the gun? Still an AOW?
The Viking
Member
Funny, I was thinking about the same thing...ilcylic said:
rocinante
Member
legality aside how good of a weapon is this kel-tec? I looked at the rifles and they are pretty cool the way the stock folds.
- Status
