Those who've had a ND, and those who are going to.
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Loosedhorse
member
As you imply, we can't eliminate the human factor. But we can plan for it, factor it in, and adjust for it. Redundancy.
Oh, and the human factor is not always bad: getting Apollo 13 home, the heroism of Alvin York, Beethoven's 9th Symphony. All examples of the human factor. We do not only fall short--we also rise above.
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Ogie
Member
Quote:
"I didn't say that "everyone else is destined to screw up as well". You totally missed my point, which was that someone who claims it is inconceivable that they will have an ND may well be careless about muzzle control -- after all, why bother controlling the muzzle if an ND is inconceivable? Putting it another way, those who recognize the distinct possibility of an ND will probably be the ones to take all the precautions to minimize the risk and, vice versa, those who deny the risk will probably be the people one should stay well away from."
By reading your other posts it seems that is exactly what you meant even if you didn't use those words.
It just seems to me that some people who have had NDs just want to rationalize their error by lumping everyone else in the same category. It's as if not having an ND has the same value attached to it as someone who has had one, the only difference being that in the first instance they haven't had it yet. Sorry, but that's crap! The two categories are NOT the same. If you had an ND, you screwed up. Hopefully you won't screw up again! Just don't expect sympathy or empathy for your lack of safe gun handling.
"I didn't say that "everyone else is destined to screw up as well". You totally missed my point, which was that someone who claims it is inconceivable that they will have an ND may well be careless about muzzle control -- after all, why bother controlling the muzzle if an ND is inconceivable? Putting it another way, those who recognize the distinct possibility of an ND will probably be the ones to take all the precautions to minimize the risk and, vice versa, those who deny the risk will probably be the people one should stay well away from."
By reading your other posts it seems that is exactly what you meant even if you didn't use those words.
It just seems to me that some people who have had NDs just want to rationalize their error by lumping everyone else in the same category. It's as if not having an ND has the same value attached to it as someone who has had one, the only difference being that in the first instance they haven't had it yet. Sorry, but that's crap! The two categories are NOT the same. If you had an ND, you screwed up. Hopefully you won't screw up again! Just don't expect sympathy or empathy for your lack of safe gun handling.
WinThePennant
Member
In my early 20's I had a ND with a 10/22 Ruger.
I was CERTAIN that it was empty. Shot a hole through the ceiling.
That WAS the LOUDEST gunshot I've ever heard!
I was CERTAIN that it was empty. Shot a hole through the ceiling.
That WAS the LOUDEST gunshot I've ever heard!
ArmedOkie
Member
#1, the only taurus I ever bought was a 357 revolver, and i too couldn't cycle an entire cylinder without locking the weapon up. The problem is that the bullets are scraping the barrel as fired, and the lead shavings are wedging between the cylinder and barrel. I sent it in, it still jams.
as far as ND's go, i firmly believe the best lessons in life are the ones that scare the hell out of you but don't cost you anything- not that you need told that because I believe you have a few years on me
#2 MY ND story is scarier.I had a hi-point 9mm (worst gun ever made ever ever ever). It FTF in every magazine i tried to run through. I had to finish my ccw course with another student's weapon. the instructor "cleared" my weapon and made me finish with a different one. i forgot to check it before leaving. i got home and attempted to figure out the problem, racking the slide and what have you. my fiancee was sitting about 3 feet to the left in my chair. She bent down to tie her shoe and the stupid operator in conjunction with the stupid handgun caused a 9mm to play tag with the wall right where her head was a moment before.
Thats the closest I've ever come to death. I don't know if I'd have been able to not commit suicide if that had happened the way it should have.... horrifying.
as far as ND's go, i firmly believe the best lessons in life are the ones that scare the hell out of you but don't cost you anything- not that you need told that because I believe you have a few years on me
#2 MY ND story is scarier.I had a hi-point 9mm (worst gun ever made ever ever ever). It FTF in every magazine i tried to run through. I had to finish my ccw course with another student's weapon. the instructor "cleared" my weapon and made me finish with a different one. i forgot to check it before leaving. i got home and attempted to figure out the problem, racking the slide and what have you. my fiancee was sitting about 3 feet to the left in my chair. She bent down to tie her shoe and the stupid operator in conjunction with the stupid handgun caused a 9mm to play tag with the wall right where her head was a moment before.
Thats the closest I've ever come to death. I don't know if I'd have been able to not commit suicide if that had happened the way it should have.... horrifying.
Totally agree with you. The point I had made, however, was that people who are confident they could never have an ND are the people to stay well away from because their complacency makes them dangerous, IMO.
Loosedhorse
member
Complacent?
What about folks who are the opposite of complacent, diligent with the 4 Rules and double-checking if the gun is loaded to the point of apparent obsession, and are therefore confident they won't have an ND? They are dangerous?
More dangerous than the guy who says, "Yep, I could have an ND any moment. Happens to everyone who handles their gun a lot--so, having one is like the mark of experience, you know? Nothing we can do about it. Pure probablility and inevitable human error"--this is the guy to feel safe around?
Well, some folks like chocolate, and some folks like vanilla.
What about folks who are the opposite of complacent, diligent with the 4 Rules and double-checking if the gun is loaded to the point of apparent obsession, and are therefore confident they won't have an ND? They are dangerous?
More dangerous than the guy who says, "Yep, I could have an ND any moment. Happens to everyone who handles their gun a lot--so, having one is like the mark of experience, you know? Nothing we can do about it. Pure probablility and inevitable human error"--this is the guy to feel safe around?
Well, some folks like chocolate, and some folks like vanilla.
It's complacency when someone asserts they could never have an ND. It's OK to be confident that the probability is low but not zero. The probability is never zero because we are all fallible. It's hard to follow rules rigidly every single time for a whole lifetime. We have already heard how even if one manages to adhere strictly to the rules one can still be caught out.
PowerG
Member
I would say following the rules diligently, every time, is the exact opposite of complacency. The rules are followed because the person handling the gun knows that not following them can lead to a Negligent Discharge...the operative word here is negligent, which means "failure to take proper care when doing something". So you do follow the rules, every time. Without fail. Always. Doing it right takes no longer than doing it sloppy, and it's not that complicated. If a ND does happen, you don't say "it could happen to anybody", or "it will happen to everybody eventually", in effect trying to lessen the fact that YOU SCREWED UP. Yes, it happens, but you owe it to yourself and everybody else to identify what caused it, and correct the failure.
It happens to a lot of people. It's not the end of the world, hopefully, but it could be. That may be a hard-ass way to look at it, but read ArmedOkie's story above; if you're doing something wrong that can very well happen, and it might not turn out so well next time. That story made the hair on the back of my neck stand up, and I would wager large that's one person that will never have it happen again. ND's can kill people, and that's why you have to be so careful.
I got a wake-up when I was about 13 years old, got into a pickup with an older guy deer hunting, and he was gonna unload a 30/30, the muzzle was on the drive shaft hump. You can guess what happened. I wasn't sure for a minute, it felt like somebody hit me in the head, my ears rang the rest of the day. I didn't find it the least bit amusing, it scared me. This guy was ex-Army, and not an idiot, he just screwed up, a seconds' inattention. I knew (and still know) if it could happen to him, it could happen to me, IF I don't follow the rules, every single time.
It happens to a lot of people. It's not the end of the world, hopefully, but it could be. That may be a hard-ass way to look at it, but read ArmedOkie's story above; if you're doing something wrong that can very well happen, and it might not turn out so well next time. That story made the hair on the back of my neck stand up, and I would wager large that's one person that will never have it happen again. ND's can kill people, and that's why you have to be so careful.
I got a wake-up when I was about 13 years old, got into a pickup with an older guy deer hunting, and he was gonna unload a 30/30, the muzzle was on the drive shaft hump. You can guess what happened. I wasn't sure for a minute, it felt like somebody hit me in the head, my ears rang the rest of the day. I didn't find it the least bit amusing, it scared me. This guy was ex-Army, and not an idiot, he just screwed up, a seconds' inattention. I knew (and still know) if it could happen to him, it could happen to me, IF I don't follow the rules, every single time.
ArmedOkie
Member
you've got it right 100%, Ogie.
the main issue is that people aren't perfect, even if the machine IS. We get too used to things working properly and things going smoothly that we get lax in our routines, and lose our fear of the weapon. Maybe not so much a fear, but definitely a respect. Respect that guns ability (be it a .22lr or a 44 magnum) to take life in less than a heartbeat. ALWAYS. Respect a weapon nearly as much as God, if you're a believer (even if you aren't, you understand the seriousness i'm conveying)- because the gun has made man as close to God as can be in our ability to choose between life and death, and that is a SERIOUS SERIOUS responsibility...
the main issue is that people aren't perfect, even if the machine IS. We get too used to things working properly and things going smoothly that we get lax in our routines, and lose our fear of the weapon. Maybe not so much a fear, but definitely a respect. Respect that guns ability (be it a .22lr or a 44 magnum) to take life in less than a heartbeat. ALWAYS. Respect a weapon nearly as much as God, if you're a believer (even if you aren't, you understand the seriousness i'm conveying)- because the gun has made man as close to God as can be in our ability to choose between life and death, and that is a SERIOUS SERIOUS responsibility...
I've yet to see anyone here make that assertion. OTOH, some have made the assertion that anyone who handles firearms long enough will more than likely have an ND at some point.
Sure, many of us - maybe even most of us - will have an ND. But there are still some of us that are not at the same risk level, because of various reasons. Better gun handling? Maturity? Patience? Level headedness? Attention span? Memory? Better mechanical competence? Better understanding of our own deficiencies? Distrust of our own competence and/or great enough respect for firearms to where we won't even dry fire a gun, at all?
If you adhere strictly to the rules, you will never intentionally put your finger on the trigger unless you want the gun to go bang. You will never intentionally pull the trigger for any other reason, including to dry fire the gun. There would be no "I swear it was unloaded" stories. That takes out 50% of the ND's, right there. This rule 1 is the one that most people ignore. The other 49.9% of ND's are solved with the finger off the trigger until the gun is on target rule, which is the one that everyone thinks they follow, but many actually mangle in practice.
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Loosedhorse
member
Who is this "we"?
I teach gun safety and basic handgun, and whenever I encounter a hesitant pupil I say, "You seem to be scared of guns. Good. So am I. We're going to get along just fine."
When I was 15, 38 years ago. I had developed a stupid habit of clicking my safety off and on while I was walking thru the woods. Normally, Toby my collie would have been walking right in front of me. The day I bumped the trigger and it went off he was behind me. I sat down sick at my stomach, knowing what I had almost done. Scared the crap out of me. I was crazy about that dog. Sure straightened a bad habit out.
TCU
Member
I have a hilarious story kind of falls under the category. So me and my buddy were at 500 yard line i was on like target 22 and he was on target 3. So it was our relay to shoot and we go up to the firing line and they tell us we are in our prep time and snap in down range, so we do so. Well his coach had walked up to him and said kill roberts kill, so without thinking he put his weapon in condition 1 snapped to semi and took a shot. Cease fire was called then you see target 2 drop and mark the shot. Then due to his personality he looked at the rest of the range like we were all wrong. The best of it all though is he shot during prep time and shot the wrong target, i dont know if i will ever let him live that one down.
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