Thought I was doing everything correctly until the big bang

[RAFreeman]

I've used H335 with 55gr, never ~75gr, but I'll echo the two things that others have said:

-I find it extremely hard to believe that you could go from fine at 22gr to grenade at 22.7gr, especially in a bolt action rifle.

-The "known H335" on the left does actually look like H335. The other two do not.

I don't know if you said this was possible or not, but when I switch powders in a thrower, I dump all of it out first of course, and then look into the very bottom with a strong flashlight. If I see any remaining granuals sticking to the sides due to static or whatever, I flush the whole thing out with water and let it dry. I want ZERO chance of mixing any powder in the hopper, of course and especially if switching from pistol to rifle.

Thank you
I used the hogdon chart from the Internet for 75gr
My rifle powder thrower has only seen varget and now...h335
I have not loaded pistol in over a year and those are set up...I'll end a picture

 

[RAFreeman]

Two Dillon 650 one set for 9mm other set for 45.
Last pic is a Johnson Quick measure. It's for my rifle power...only other powder it's seen was varget and it was dumped out. I use the empty varget container for a stand

 

[John3921]

Curiouser and curiouser. Looking forward to hearing what Savage has to say.


For all the loading I do, the .223 is starting to make me nervous. Far too many reports of kabooms.

 

[BigBore44]

Max charge (guarantee), possible over crimp, bullet set too far out (maybe), range brass could be weak, metal fatigue of reciever, bad batch of powder, bullets may be oversized, burr on the case rim, bullet may have been weak and fractured during loading. All are possibilities. Is the barrel free from possible obstruction now?

So glad you're alright (relatively speaking). Have the powder tested also. Send some to Hogdon, but retain some for someone else to examine. And keep us updated please.

 

[HDGator]

Just some observations and thoughts.

1. Using the Lyman 48th reloading manual (I am at work and don't have my 49th) The statement that the max charge was 22.7 grains of H335. I fail to see where the max charge is as low as 22.7 grains. Everything has a max of 25 grains on the heaviest of bullets. Can we get a link to where you pulled the load data from?

2. In all of the pictures I have seen of kabooms from over charging in the past, I only remember seeing "Bent" and broken metal.

In this case the pieces appear to be more Fractured than bent. Now I am not a metallurgist (but I did stay at a hotel 6 last night), wouldn't the lack of bent pieces suggest that this is metal fatigue, failure versus a true blowup?

The picture that jmorris posted shows some bent components.
The pics of this gun have remarkably straight pieces.
Is this a clue to metal fatigue?

 

[John3921]

I think fatigue for a couple reasons. One is that there are definite darker areas of the fracture. This may be photography and lighting, but if real - then the fracture has been open and exposed to gas and carbon for some time. Two, one of the pictures posted of the upper half of the receiver there is an area that looks like an initiation site surrounded by discolored metals. Also, there is suddenly an area of more crystalline looking fracture that looks like overload. So, you have an initiation site, discolored metal exposed to combustion and/or cleaning products, and sudden failure surfaces. Crack started, crack grew, crack grew over time to be big enough to cause sudden structural failure.

All based on relatively poor photographs (i.e not metallurgical lab grade photos - not a knock on OP ), so until someone with knowledge can actually examine the thing there isn't really enough to conclude anything here.

 

[MErl]

http://www.nosler.com/s/5-56x45mm-Nato-77gr-80gr-Version-7-0.pdf
H335 max there is 23gn (happened to have just looked it up over the weekend)

 

[snuffy]

I just looked at my model 11 .308 Savage. It has a pressure relief vent on both sides of the bolt lug area just behind the chamber. A simple ruptured case would vent out these holes, long BEFORE it ripped apart the receiver. I assume all Savage rifles have the same vents, as do most if not all modern rifles made today.The ruptured case, the gas released would simply blow out those holes. I looked again at the pics of the rifle that RAF has there, you can clearly see one of the PR holes on the left half.

F Guffey; What ever happened happened fast and it happened between the barrel face and bolt. After that whatever happened created more escaping gas than the rifle was designed to handle.

Duvel; The case protruding from the chamber seems odd, almost as if it was fired out of battery.

You DO realize all rimless bottle necked cases do not completely enter the barrel/chamber? What you see there is all the further it goes into the chamber.

What's left is what happened to cause the case head to rupture. A case full of H-335 would blow the primer loose, and stick the case in the chamber. Anybody here have quickload so they could see how much a case level full of H-335 weighs and what that would result in pressure? (I just did so, 38.0 grains level to the case mouth.) I doubt a bullet could be seated, ball powder does not compress like stick powder can.) I'm NOT saying the OP did such a thing, simply that an overload, even 10 grains over max, would not explode an intact receiver.

My opinion? Either a heavy bore obstruction, (certainly NOT a bee), or the wrong powder.

 

[taymag]

One thing that sketches me out is that they dont ship/manufacture the powders with a shrink wrap like some food (or vitamins mainly I guess) top. How hard could it be? I mean, some kid/jackass can literally go into any Bass Pro and mix the powders

 

[Duvel]

You DO realize all rimless bottle necked cases do not completely enter the barrel/chamber? What you see there is all the further it goes into the chamber.

The picture suggested otherwise to me.

QL: "case full", according to QL, is 37.4gr. 75gr A-Max seated to 2.260 w/ 37.4gr H-335 is at 159.1%, with a predicted chamber pressure of 461K.


22gr of Titegroup would produce 291K, HP-38 281K.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Later to this thread. I hope you heal quickly and completely.

What is bothering me, the powders in the picture do not look like the known sampler H-335. Hodgdon pistol powders look like the other two. It seems somehow the wrong powder g it in the case.

I would contact Hodgdon with the whole story and see if they will accept samples if the powders you got from the thrower and ammo to see if they are indeed H-335.

 

[btaylor73]

I haven't been on THR for a week and just came across the post. Luckily I didn't have your same experience but I think I might have been close. I got my Savage 6.5cm and couldn't wait to get my OAL gauge from midway so I loaded up a bunch of rounds to factory spec OAL (Hornady) and went to the range for a couple of days. On my third trip to the range the range officer called a cease fire and I had a round in the chamber. I unloaded and during the cease fire, by accident,i noticed that there were lands marks deep into the bullet. I quit shooting it and waited for the OAL gauge to show up. Come to find out, the rifle was chambered really short.
I searched the inter webs and did find that there was a few under chambered LRP rifles. I wish I could find the blog or forum that I had read. I contacted Savage and said don't shoot it again and send it in. They took care of me and did it on their dime. Shoots the lights out now and I'm Happy.
In the future I will wait for OAL to start reloading. Also I will start right off the bat with my chronograph.
Anyways, that's my uneducated guess

 

[birdshot8's]

I once bought a 22 hornet at a garage sale that had a dirt dabber nest in the barrel. It took up several inches of the barrel and was difficult to remove even after saturating it with oil.

 

[Nature Boy]

Is there any way the savage bolt design would allow it to fire out of battery?

 

[Slamfire]

If this is how much a case of 223 will hold of H-335

QL: "case full", according to QL, is 37.4gr. 75gr A-Max seated to 2.260 w/ 37.4gr H-335 is at 159.1%, with a predicted chamber pressure of 461K.

I see no reason why there ought to be any other explanation than an overcharge of powder. If a case full of H335 is produces 461,000 psia, I don't know of any rifle that will contain that pressure. That is beyond the tensile strength of any steel I am familiar with, like two to three times higher.

 

[ny32182]

A case full of H335 generates twice as much pressure as 22gr of Titegroup? Something seems wrong with that calculation.

 

[Metal God]

After looking at my powders ( H335 & Titegroup ) and the OP pictures of the powders . I'm going to say he loaded Titegroup in the 223 case . Anyone have a Quick loads pressure guess on what that pressure would have been ?

H-335


Titegroup


H-335


Titegroup


Side by side


They are clearly different with Titegroup having a shinier look when in a pile like the OP's piles on the right . This picture does not seem to show it as much as I observed it while looking at the piles by eye . The H-335 has a deeper concentrated black to it when in a pile . Also if the OP could take another look and see if the pulled powder from the loaded ammo has those discolored pieces in it like my pic #3 . If it does not , then it's not H-335

 

[stavman11]

add HP38/w231 to yer Pics

here is W231 and H335

The other is those two combined

 

[stavman11]

To me it looks like some HP38 mixed with H335

Tightgroup looks different., I looked myself... Not Varget... Thats a Long TUBE looking powder

I suggest the OP take his own pics of his Powders

Hopper
Pulled Bullet Load
Tightgroup
HP38

It sure looks like 2 mixed powders for sure


Oh and P.S
Glad yer gunna be ok Buddy

 

[Metal God]

I did not see the op say HP-38 but went back and found it . So yes either or would be bad and cause a KABOOM . I never considered he had pistol powder mixed into the H-335 powder . That would be bad as well . When I was taking those pictures I was a bit unsettled having the two powders out at the same time .

I also went back and zoomed in on his pic . The two powders on the right to me clearly look different . That does not mean they are of course . Camera angle can cause odd things but the picture it self seems self evident

 

[judgedelta]

I, like you're supposed to do, always just have one powder out on the bench. BUT, one time I pulled some bullets, saved the components, including the powder, and realized when I got through, that I had put the powder back in the wrong can. Dumped out a half pound of 231 back when stuff was scarce. Really hurt (not as bad as a kaboom). Stuff happens. Pictures aren't the best, but I've got a large monitor and it looks like at least some Titegroup to me.

 

[Duvel]

A case full of H335 generates twice as much pressure as 22gr of Titegroup? Something seems wrong with that calculation.

How so?

QL is just a computer model based off vivacity bomb results, and has the potential to be in gross error.

37.4gr: 4,610,363 psi
Back the charge of H-335 down to 36gr, and the pressure drops to 1,167,630 psi.
32.7gr: 358,119 psi


Edit: QL calculated psi box doesn't have room for seven digits. A copy & paste revealed it's true predictions.

 

[PCCUSNRET]

I just filled a LC .223 case to the top and it would only hold 32.7 grs of H335. I doubt you could even make a compressed load unless you removed a few grs of powder. Would really like a closer look at the powder in the center and the one on the right. They just don't look like H335 in that photo.

 

[hdwhit]

In this case the pieces appear to be more Fractured than bent. Now I am not a metallurgist (but I did stay at a hotel 6 last night), wouldn't the lack of bent pieces suggest that this is metal fatigue, failure versus a true blowup?

That is entirely possible.

We can all have our opinions, but based on just a handful of photographs there's not enough information for a serious forensic analysis.

 

[MDof2]

Pistol powder charge.