Today in my class...

[Mr. Mysterious]

Good evening everyone had a little Q&A session in class today.

The class is "Murder in America" and we had two guest speakers. The first was the Indianapolis Stars crime reporter and the second was a SGT on IPD who was media relations. Well...in the course of the reporters lecture the topic came up about the Butler Universities police officer that was shot by his own gun.

Well...the cop described that there was most likely a struggle and he was killed. The teacher mentioned how a finger print system on the gun could have prevented that.

A student then asked if there was a strap holding the gun in the holster, the cop said no. He then said that he had his own gun taken away once, but luckily had a backup and surprised the criminal.

I then raise my hand and asked if the lack of an external safety on the Glock that he carries and that the Butler officer most likely carried had a direct result in the ability of the perp to easily fire off a shot.

He then goes into the pro-glock safety rhetoric saying how the gun won't fire when dropped out of an airplane.

After he finishes with that I say, well the Glock Safe Action safety is very successful in preventing accidental firing when dropped, thrown, or bumped...and I ask him if the fact that there is not a single external safety to stop any person from grabbing the gun, pulling the trigger, and subsequently firing off a round is a contributing factor to officers being killed by their own firearm. He then said that he is not aware of a pistol with an external safety and his old service revolver did not.

I said well...the Beretta that I carry in the Army has an external safety and the Steyr that I carry on the street has an external safety and so does, 1911 series, HK's, CZ's, and many others.

He said he doesn't think it would make a difference and he would not want to have to worry about a safety in a critical situation.

I then dropped it...wasn't hitting home. I think I might e-mail the reporter though and maybe shine a little firearm education his way. I like Glocks, and everything...but I also like an external safety and that is why I carry a Steyr.

 

[nico]

What's that metal thing in your hand? And why are there worms spilling out of it? [runs and hides]

Seriously though, I think you have some good points, and I don't see why glocks aren't offered with a "real" safety. But, then again I've never even handled one.

 

[Gordon Fink]

Sometimes, even the “pro-gun” think it’s the gun’s fault.

~G. Fink

 

[ZeroX]

Some sort of gun issue sometimes comes up in one class or another. I used to get involved, throwing out the facts I had at my disposal. But I'm starting to get jaded and pessimistic about it. Just feels like I'm trying to drink the Atlantic with a soup spoon (especially here in Bloomington )

I blame Counterstrike, most Hollywood movies, and Michael Moore.

 

[IndyChris]

Way to go to go for standing up in front of the star! They are pretty liberal from what I can tell

You make a very good point for a 1911 or LDA style gun, with a redundant safety setup.. A reckless grab is less likely to hit both the grip and thumb safety and allow a shot to happen.

Kinda curious as to the rest of the classes take on it. They freak out, or just ignore it?




Chris

 

[Mr. Mysterious]

I'm a political science major and most of those classes are taught by liberals and probably 70% of the students are liberals.

This class fell into the whole criminal justice majors mainly and the class as well as the instructor are a little more to the right. The professor (a female) is always talking about how she'll shoot someone in her house or how she has a lot of guns in her house.

Gordon, I'm not going to debate the pro's and con's of Glock or other guns that rely on a trigger safety or DAO as opposed to an external safety, it's been done on here dozens of times. I own a couple handguns that have no redundant safety and carry one ( a KT P-32) about 85% of the time, and my next handgun purchase *gasp* is a Glock.

This topic came up because they went from the prof bringing up fingerprint recognition to the questioning of the holster and if a strap could have prevented the withdrawing of the weapon, to finally myself asking what I did.

 

[Ryder]

I have handled many guns. Everytime I pick up a specific brand of gun for the first time it takes me several seconds of examining it to figure out it's function (except when there was no safety). It's just the sort of thing that I don't know by instinct. All those buttons and levers are almost enough to discourage a guy but probably not as much as being shot by your own gun by some bad guy when you could have had the chance to punch his lights out first.

and he would not want to have to worry about a safety in a critical situation

Some people have what it takes and some don't. At least he is aware of his limitations. That aint bad.

 

[Darkmind]

and he would not want to have to worry about a safety in a critical situation

Some people have what it takes and some don't. At least he is aware of his limitations. That aint bad.

People like that have limitations because they allow it.

 

[Rimmer]

.

 

[jefnvk]

Rimmer -

There was a news story a few years back that I remember. The officer had lost his gun to the criminal, who tried to shoot him. Couldn't find the safety, so he took off running instead. Good for the officer that if you grab an unfamiliar gun, it takes a few seconds to find which one is the safety.

 

[HarryB]

I know an officer who carries a S&W auto because of the mag safety. In a struggle he can dump the mag and go for a BUG

 

[CAS700850]

If I read this correctly, the officer was carrying his Glock in an open-top holster, meaning no retention device. So, while it may be true that a manual safety on the handgun would have given the officer time to go for his back-up, a retention holster might have helped keep him from losing the Glock in the first place. I'm assuming that he was not a uniformed officer, as I cannot imagine a uniformed officer carrying a sidearm in an open-top Level 1 holster. There are an ever-increasing number of concealment holsters that offer retention devices to help resist a gun-grab.

So, rather than blame the Glock for operating as it was designed, how about suggesting that an officer carry a more secure holster?

 

[JPL]

Glock won't fire if dropped out of an airplane.

And that has what to do with a police officer having his gun taken from him and killed with it?

 

[ScottsGT]

NRA did a study a few years back. They took the average person off the street that had no firearms knowledge. Took them into a room with several different guns. Revolvers, glocks and 1911's and a few others. The average time to pick up a gun and pull the trigger with no external safety was something like 2 sec. All the external safety guns had a 15 to 30 second time. Enough time to grab the BUG and save your life. I've NEVER been a fan of a glock, and I never will. mainly because of that reason. I couldn't be a cop unless I could carry a 1911A1, BHP or a Sig. That simple.

 

[TheEgg]

Butler Universities police officer that was shot by his own gun.

Nope -- he was shot "with" his own gun.

Language Policeman, signing off.

 

[Gordon Fink]

Scotts, which SIG has a manual safety?

~G. Fink

 

[BryanP]

Gordon,

Not to be pedantic, but the SIG 1911 and the new Mosquito both have external safeties. I have no idea if he was referring to the SIG GSR 1911 or not.

Me, I like my P220 in part because it doesn't have an external safety.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

This topic came up because they went from the prof bringing up fingerprint recognition to the questioning of the holster and if a strap could have prevented the withdrawing of the weapon, to finally myself asking what I did.

MM, I think you have some good points, but a "strap" by itself doesn't mean much. I carry mostly 1911s and I have several holsters with retention straps. But they are nothing more than a strip of leather with a snap in the end, and very easy to unfasten. They are there only to prevent the gun from accidently falling out of the holster, they aren't by any stretch of the imagination retention holsters.

There is a difference. And I think all LEOs should carry in retention holsters.

 

[Tory]

SIG safeties

"Me, I like my P220 in part because it doesn't have an external safety."

And what would you describe the function of the EXTERNAL hammer drop lever as?

 

[Rabid Rabbit]

Why stop at one safety?

Maybe there should be two or three just in case.

So when somebody gets hurt/dies because they fumbled the safety what will you blame then? Nothing ever fits every circumstance.

 

[Gordon Fink]

I would hardly call the SIG’s decocking lever a safety.

As for the SIG 1911, consider me humbled in my memory lapse.

~G. Fink

 

[Tory]

Then just what IS it's purpose?

"I would hardly call the SIG’s decocking lever a safety."

I would hardly call a device which exists to SAFEly lower the hammer, thus requiring the FULL (read: long) trigger pull to discharge the firearm anything else.

Semantics ON.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

And what would you describe the function of the EXTERNAL hammer drop lever as?

"Decocker"? Maybe?

 

[Gordon Fink]

Yeah, the pistol will still fire after being decocked, albeit with a double-action trigger pull. I thought a safety would prevent a gun from firing. Semantically speaking, that is.

~G. Fink

 

[carpettbaggerr]

I would hardly call a device which exists to SAFEly lower the hammer, thus requiring the FULL (read: long) trigger pull to discharge the firearm anything else.

Then put the "safety" on, point the gun at your head and pull the trigger gently. No?

That's because it's a decocker,not a safety.

And, btw, point the firearm in a safe direction whenever you use a decocker. Once in a while they go off -- and they'll often empty the magazine when this happens.