Today's News... or the thread starter...

[Denmark116]

From today's paper; thought this might generate some discussion....

By Associated Press
Published May 1, 2004, 5:01 AM CDT

ORLANDO, Fla. -- A federal drug agent shot himself in the leg during a gun safety presentation to children in what police describe as an accident. His bosses, however, are still investigating the incident.

The Drug Enforcement Administration agent, whose name was not released, was speaking April 9 to about 50 adults and students organized by the Orlando Minority Youth Golf Association, witnesses and police said.



He drew his .40-caliber duty weapon and removed the magazine, according to the police report. He then pulled back the slide and asked an audience member to look inside the gun and confirm it wasn't loaded.

Witnesses said when the agent released the slide, one shot fired into the top of his left thigh. The gun was pointed at the floor

The agent was treated at Orlando Regional Medical Center and returned to work, a DEA official said.

Copyright © 2004, The Associated Press

 

[priv8ter]

sigh

I'll take 'what is the deffinition of irony?' for $800 Alex.

Thank gosh none of the kids caught it.

greg

 

[wally]

If the gun was pointed at the floor, how'd the bullet hit his thigh?

Sounds like a classic negligent disgharge to me, and bad reporting as usual.

He didn't check to verify the chamber was empty -- asking someone else is not the same!

I'll bet he had his finger on the trigger when he dropped the slide, inertia of the slide hitting home brings the gun forward and pulls the trigger. Textbook stupidity IMHO.

Idiot!

Unless the gun in question proves to be mechanically defective this clown should be fired immediately!

Any bets on if the gun was a Glock? Not that it matters.

--wally.

 

[Marshall]

Oh great, another 50 adults and kids turned off to guns now. One of them will probably grow up to be a politician and present striking new gun banning legislation.

The DEA agent must have been smoking some evidence.

Thank GOD none of the kids were hit!

 

[1911Tuner]

Well...

I guess if ya can't be a good example, at least serve as a horrible
warning...

A firearms instructor at a local indoor range (NRA Certified, no less)
let one go in the training room during the safety phase of a CCW class...
twice...

Last I heard, he was working for the Guilford County Sheriff's Department
as a...you guessed it...firearms instructor. (Rumor mill...Word of mouth)

*sigh*

Tuner

 

[Redhat]

Well folks,

Since I've been in this game for a while I'll share some thoughts with you all (especially those who think this guy is an "idiot")

1. Be advised that the more you handle firearms and get comfortable with them, the more chances you have for complacency to rear it's ugly head. All you have to do is lose concentration for a second...so don't get to smug in your abilities. It can happen to anyone!!!

2. I'm pretty sure the newspaper isn't offering an exact account of what happened or what type weapon was involved.

3. If anyone is involved in this type instruction, PLEASE consider having an assistant instructor there at all times to watch and make sure you don't do something stupid

4. Remember, weapons are like snakes, if you handle them safely you won't get bit but the instant you get careless...

 

[1911Tuner]

Points

Howdy Redhat, and welcome to THR.

You said:

Be advised that the more you handle firearms and get comfortable with them, the more chances you have for complacency to rear it's ugly head. All you have to do is lose concentration for a second...so don't get to smug in your abilities. It can happen to anyone.

Absolutely. No argument here...but the question is:

"Shouldn't the guy have gone to the head just before his demonstration and "loaded" his weapon with dummies or snap caps before going into a classroom fulla kids?"
( A spare mag on his belt would have been quickly accessible in case of
an unforseen emergency, if being "armed and ready was a concern.)

And in the case that I cited...

"Isn't once enough to re-instill the respect necessary to prevent it from happening a second time?" Every time I pick up a gun, I have flashbacks
of my unintentional discharge in 1981...just like it was yesterday.

So I have to wonder about the mentality and responsibility of both individuals in question, if not their intelligence and/or common sense quotient

You said a mouthful on the "too familiar with the beast" point. I've got a
little routine that I do whenever I hear somebody referring to their pistol
as their "toy" or their "best friend"...

"It's not a toy, and it's NOT your friend. It's as dangerous as a rattlesnake and should be regarded as hostile at all times."

Or...one that I borrowed from someone else"

"It's NOT safe! It's a GUN!"

Cheers!

Tuner

 

[wally]

Every gun is always loaded until one's *personally* inspected the chamber and seen light through the bore. Anyone who doesn't believe and heed is indeed an idiot. I'll cut zero slack on this!

Complacency is *no* excuse!

Trusting someone else to check for you or thinking you've checked recently enough, is how these "accidents" happen.

--wally.

"It's NOT safe! It's a GUN!"

I believe its a Russian commentary on US "safety" requirements

"Of course ez not safe, ez gun!"

Along the same lines as their commentary on NASA 's propensity for triple redundancy -- "why make three if you can't make one that you'll know will work?"

 

[1911Tuner]

Russian Commentary

wally said:


I believe its a Russian commentary on US "safety" requirements

"Of course ez not safe, ez gun!"

Bingo!

The story behind that comment was noted during an exchange with the
Russians with our own FBI. At the academy, during a demonstration of
Russian Police gun handling technique, a young rookie got the Russian's
attention and said:

"I'm sorry! But that just doesn't seem safe!"

At that point, the Russian agent wrinkled his brow and spoke that simple,
eloquent, and nail-on-the-head phrase.....

or was it...

"Safe??? Eez GON! Eez NOT safe!"

 

[Redhat]

1911Tuner,

Thanks for the welcome

I'm not defending the agent, just posted my .02 worth to remind folks that it can happen to anyone...not just idiots.

I don't think he should have had a loaded weapon anywhere near that classroom, he should have gotten an extra from the office and took it if he needed to stay armed, however, where I work the golden rule is if you're teaching pistol you aren't armed with a pistol...too much can go wrong.

Wally,

Complacency is no excuse...correct, but it still occurs...sorta tends to creep up on people

Shoot Safe

 

[JohnKSa]

I emailed the article's author.

She (Pam Johnson of the Orlando Sentinel) left out that the witnesses said the mag was back in the gun when the agent fired the shot. I don't think she understood that was a critical piece of information.

From what she said here's what happened.

1. Dropped mag.
2. Checked chamber (via audience member)
3. Re-inserted mag.
4. Dropped slide.

At which point I figure he dryfired into his leg because he was sure the gun was empty. Simple brain failure...

 

[mercedesrules]

Why is the Drug Enforcement Administration giving gun safety classes to young black golfers?

Obviously, to turn them against gun rights.

Too bad he didn't have the gun pointed at his head.

 

[faustulus]

Here's the text of the original article. The AP just did a pickup (read bad rewrite)

DEA agent shoots himself in safety class

By Pamela J. Johnson | Orlando Sentinel Staff Writer
Posted April 30, 2004

The U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration is investigating an incident in which one of its agents giving a presentation to Orlando-area children on gun safety shot himself in the thigh.

Orlando police investigators have ruled the April 9 shooting at The Callahan Center, 101 N. Parramore Ave., accidental, police Lt. Curley Bowman said Thursday night.

But DEA special agent Joe Kilmer said Thursday night that an internal investigation led by officials at the agency's headquarters in Washington was still ongoing. Kilmer would not release the name of the agent involved. After the agent was treated at Orlando Regional Medical Center for a gunshot wound to his left thigh, he returned to work, Kilmer said.

Vivian Farmer, 52, was in a classroom at The Callahan Center with her 13-year-old nephew when the agent began his presentation about 7 p.m. Roughly 50 adults and children were present, and it was "standing room only," Farmer said Thursday night.

The presentation was part of a class called "The Game of Life, The Game of Golf," according to a police report. It was held by the Orlando Minority Youth Golf Association, which aims to introduce minority children to the sport. The agent was speaking to the youths about making good life choices and included a presentation on gun safety, according to the report.

During the speech, the agent drew his .40-caliber duty weapon and removed the magazine, the report said. He then pulled back the slide and asked a man in the audience to look inside the weapon to make sure it was not loaded, the report said.

"The person nodded that it didn't have ammunition," Farmer recounted. "The gun was never pointed at anyone."

Witnesses told police that the agent kept his gun pointed toward the floor and when he released the slide, the weapon fired one shot into the top of his thigh.

"The kids screamed and started to cry," Farmer recounted. "My first thought was that it was part of his presentation. I thought it was a blank and he was trying to make a point about how easy it is to fire, to get the kids' attention. But then I looked at the agent's face and he looked surprised. Then there was a quick grimace on his face of sudden pain.

"I thought, 'This isn't a joke. This is real.' "

Farmer said most people rushed out while an ambulance and police were arriving.

"Everyone was pretty shaken up," Farmer said. "But the point of gun safety hit home. Unfortunately, the agent had to get shot. But after seeing that, my nephew doesn't want to have anything to do with guns."

 

[themic]

1) what the heck was he doing presenting the gun during a golf discussion?

2) if you're going to be doing a firearms lesson, and you carry a firearm because you're a federal agent, wouldn't you want to bring a different firearm for said lesson?

3) think the dea uses sig, not glock. don't quote me on that.

 

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

Orlando police investigators have ruled the April 9 shooting at The Callahan Center, 101 N. Parramore Ave

Would that be the Harry Callahan Center?

"Did he fire five or six shots?"

oh wait...the agent didn't remember it was a self-loader...

I suppose that public speaking is not high on the 'easy task' list for DEA agents. Brain lock, indeed. Unfortunately, their day got made.

Regards,
Rabbit.

 

[jc2]

Themic - no the DEA uses Glocks.

Not that there's an excuse for not checking the chamber himself (and keeping it pointed in safe direction), but I wonder if it was "slam-fire"--sounds like it. I always make darn sure I know where the muzzle is pointed any time I drop the slide.

 

[Sarge111]

I'll throw in...

with the following concept:

ANY gun used for a safety or instructional presentation of ANY kind should be unloaded, double-checked, and checked again before ever going anywhere near the classroom. I have done "firearm function demonstrations" in open court for criminal cases, and I always checked the gun repeatedly during a recess- and cleared it and demonstrated that it was unloaded again, for the judge & jury, before proceeding with the demonstration. I have done a number of them for police firearms training sessions, too,

No ammunition, no loaded magazine should be anywhere near such an event. When a demonstration requires that "ammunition" be cycled through the weapon- that's what they make dummies for. Brownell's has them in just about any caliber you could want, and the price of them is inconsequential compared to the danger and embarrassment of an AD in a public setting.

Tools are as safe as the person handling them, whether that tool is chain saw or a MP5.

 

[mercedesrules]

Would that be the Harry Callahan Center?

"Did he fire five or six shots?"

oh wait...the agent didn't remember it was a self-loader...

I suppose that public speaking is not high on the 'easy task' list for DEA agents. Brain lock, indeed. Unfortunately, their day got made.

Haha! Guess he didn't "know his limitations".


Funny, when I pull back the slide of my gun, a cartridge flies out!

 

[JohnKSa]

jc2,

In this case, checking the chamber was irrelevant since according to witnesses the magazine was back in the gun when the slide was released.

It could have been a slamfire, but I doubt it. The simplest and most likely explanation is a continuation of the temporary brain failure that led him to replace the mag before dropping the slide.