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Too many "No Guns" signs in AZ

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Jake L, Mar 11, 2013.

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  1. Jake L

    Jake L Member

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    Frank, thanks. This is why I'm not really planning on carrying "constitutionally". As nice as it is to have a state that respects my right to keep and bare arms, I'd like to educate myself with a CC class. Its just too easy to be confused with all the laws.
     
  2. sonick808

    sonick808 Member

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    For AZ folks, don't forget to put Tim Forshey's number in your phone in case you ever need to defend yourself. He is an instructor, lawyer and specializes in these cases.
     
  3. Bobson

    Bobson Member

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    I live in North Phoenix. I see the signs fairly often. I've been pretty good about avoiding places I know are posted, but there are certain smaller, unique shops that are posted, and the wife isn't willing to stop shopping there, so I'll leave the gun in the car when we go.

    If I had to guess, I'd say about 1/3 of the places we tend to shop are posted. I've been able to put about half of those on the "we don't go there anymore" list.
     
  4. Gaerek

    Gaerek Member

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    So just an update. I did not get an email back from Alan Korwin, but I didn't really expect to. I'm guessing he's a very busy man, and it's difficult to respond to every email sent his way. I have about a 25% track record of getting responses from people like him, but it was worth a try.

    However, this weekend, I did speak with my defensive handgun instructor while at the range (he happened to be there) and I just got off the phone with my lawyer a few minutes ago.

    According to my instructor, he said that the no guns signs having force of law is in the trespassing statute, not the gun statutes. Basically, by ignoring a sign, which is considered a reasonable notice, you are trespassing, and the property owner/operator is under no obligation to ask you to leave/disarm before calling the police. The police, in turn, are under no obligation to ask you to leave. They may ask the property owner if they wish to have you charged/arrested. His side note was that most places will simply ask you to leave. However, they do not have to.

    My lawyer basically said the same thing. Though she clarified by stating that there could be a sign that says "No Green Bow Ties" and if you enter wearing a green bow tie, they can technically call the police and have you arrested, without asking you to leave. She also said that most businesses will ask you to leave first, but she knows of at least a half dozen locally that call the police without contacting you first.

    Her recommendation is to look around the entrances of all private buildings you wish to enter. If they do not have a sign, you are probably ok, but if you are asked to leave, you MUST leave immediately. If you stop to argue, you are now trespassing and the police may get involved. In addition, she mentioned that some signs are very small, or in difficult to see places. She specifically mentioned some local malls that have their code of conduct posted in very small print at most entrances (some have no signs at all) and in it they mention no weapons. Usually there's a smallish 2in diameter sticker that has a gun with a red line through it. She said that her recommendation is not to carry in that place, though she said that you may still get charged, and the definition of reasonable notice may be argued in court...at your expense.

    In other words, disobey no gun signs in AZ at your own risk.

    EDIT: As has been mentioned, the specified "No Gun" sign is only applicable in bars and restaurants that serve alcohol. If that sign is not present, you cannot be charged under that particular law. However, if there is another no conforming sign, you may still be charged under the trespassing statute.
     
  5. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator

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    I wonder. After all, the applicable laws (4-229) explicitly says (emphasis added):

    So the law expressly authorizes carry with a permit, unless there's a particular form of a sign. That could obviate prosecution under the general criminal trespass statute, at least unless an Arizona court has said otherwise. I haven't done the research, so I don't know; and trying it out is probably a bad idea. Even if you were to win, it could cost you a lot of money.
     
  6. Gaerek

    Gaerek Member

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    That's a good point, actually. I know I had been told that you can be charged under the trespass statute, but the way it's worded seems to indicate that it's not true.

    I certainly do not wish to be a test case. Besides, in my experiences, the only times I've seen non-conforming signs was also in the presence of conforming signs. I've never seen one without the other in bars or restaurants...so it might mostly be a moot point.

    In the end, my general policy regardless of what the law says, is that I do not financially support businesses who do not support my right to self defense. It's their right to put up the sign, and keep me out. It's my right not to do business there.
     
  7. ApacheCoTodd

    ApacheCoTodd Member

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    It never bothers me except in open carry. In that case, I don't want to be seen removing a side arm to lock up in my car or motorcycle and the business owner then loses a customer at that time and likely in the future as well.

    Not a statement of boycott (their store - their rules!) just a matter of practical considerations on the part of an oft armed Arizona-American.
     
  8. Jake L

    Jake L Member

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    I have good news. I was daydreaming of a website like yelp made for keeping track of businesses that are gun friendly since its so important here in AZ. Well there is one.

    http://friendorfoe.us/

    It looks like an amazing tool for concealed carriers all over, and apparently membership (and thus the database) are growing fast.
     
  9. Zonamo

    Zonamo Member

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  10. harrygunner

    harrygunner Member

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    I've spent a bit of time in Arizona and see the signs mainly in Phoenix. I'm not used to having to worry about such signs. So I take special care to look for them when I'm in Arizona.

    Reduce those laws to "trespassing if refusing to leave" and Arizona would be even more than the #1 most supportive state.
     
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