Discovery Channel Top 10 Combat Rifles...no Mosin...do you think it's fair??

[saturno_v]

While I agree with most of the inclusions and the rankings in the list, I find the absence of the Mosin Nagant rather serious...

Link to the videos on here:

http://military.discovery.com/videos/top-10-rifles/

IMHO the Mosin deserved to be included more than the M-14 (very short service life) or the Steyr AUG or even the Sturmgewehr 44.

Impressive length of service, the 7.62x54R is the longest service military cartridge in the world in active combat duty with major armed forces.

The quantity built, the number of armed conflicts has been used and the fact it emerged on the winning side of one of the major military confrontations in the world.

Let's not forget that it was the weapon of some of the most successful military snipers.

Like someone said before: "The Mosin Nagant has fought against itself and won every time. ..."

What is your opinion??

Please feel free to mention some other rifles that you would have included in the list (but not exceeding 10 in total) and the reasons why.

Let's roll!!!

 

[Balrog]

Service life is not necessarily important.

The Roman gladius, for example, was the standard service weapon of the Roman empire for perhaps 600 years, yet it is far inferior to an M14.

 

[Mags]

It would help if you posted the list, I'm more on The History Channel than Discovery.

 

[taliv]

and if the roman gladius was a rifle, it might have made the list

the top four are a tossup (AR, AK, Garand, FAL, in alphabetical order). the next 6 are so far behind them it hardly matters. but yeah, i would have included the mosin in that list.

 

[cleetus03]

I think the op meant the Military Channel which is part of discovery network.
Here's the list via http://military.discovery.com/technology/weapons/rifles-intro.html

Top Ten Combat Rifles​

1.) AK47
Type: Semi or Fully Automatic Assault Rifle
Country of Origin: Soviet Union
Caliber: 7.62 x 39 mm (.30 inch)
Cartridge Capacity: 30 rounds
Muzzle Velocity: 2,329 feet per second
Rate of Fire: 600 rounds per minute

2.) M16
Type: Semi or Fully Automatic Assault Rifle
Country of Origin: United States
Caliber: 5.56 x 45 mm (.223 inch)
Cartridge Capacity: 20-30 rounds
Muzzle Velocity: Approximately 3,281 feet per second
Rate of Fire: 700-950 rounds per minute

3.) Lee Enfield SMLE
Type: Bolt-Action Rifle
Country of Origin: United Kingdom
Caliber: 7.7 x 56 mm (.30 inch)
Cartridge Capacity: 10 rounds
Muzzle Velocity: approximately 2,438 feet per second
Rate of Fire: 15-20 rounds per minute

4.) M1 Garand
Type: Semiautomatic
Rifle Country of Origin: United States
Caliber: 7.62 x 63 mm (.30-06 inch)
Cartridge Capacity: 8 rounds
Muzzle Velocity: Approximately 2,838 feet per second
Rate of Fire: 30 rounds per minute

5.) FN FAL
Type: Semi or Fully Automatic Rifle
Country of Origin: Belgium
Caliber: 7.62 x 51 mm (.30 inch)
Cartridge Capacity: 20 rounds
Muzzle Velocity: Approximately 2,700 feet per second
Rate of Fire: 650-700 rounds per minute

6.) Mauser 98K Carbine
Type: Bolt-Action Rifle
Country of Origin: Germany
Caliber: 7.92 x 57 mm (.30 inch)
Cartridge Capacity: 5 rounds
Muzzle Velocity: approximately 2,822 feet per second
Rate of Fire: 10-15 rounds per minute

7.) Steyr AUG
Type: Semi or Fully Automatic Bull-Pup Assault Rifle
Country of Origin: Austria
Caliber: 5.56 x 45 mm (.22 inch)
Cartridge Capacity: 30 and 42 rounds
Muzzle Velocity: Approximately 3,084 feet per second
Rate of Fire: 650 rounds per minute

8.) Springfield 1903
Type: Bolt-Action Rifle
Country of Origin: United States
Caliber: 7.62 x 63 mm (.30-06 inch)
Cartridge Capacity: 5 rounds
Muzzle Velocity: Approximately 2,700 feet per second
Rate of Fire: 10 rounds per minute


9.) STURMGEWEHR 44
Type: Semi or Fully Automatic Assault Rifle
Country of Origin: Germany
Caliber: 7.92 x 33 mm
Cartridge Capacity: 30 rounds
Muzzle Velocity: Approximately 2,133 feet per second
Rate of Fire: 500 rounds per minute

10.) M14
Type: Semi or Fully Automatic Rifle
Caliber: 7.62 x 51 mm (.30 inch)
Muzzle Velocity: Approximately 2,799 feet per second
Rate of Fire: 700-750 rounds per minute

 

[wishin]

I would have included the BAR, if only because that sucker put out some firepower!

 

[Mags]

Yep the AUG should be replaced by the Mosin all the other selections make sense except for the M14 I think the Thompson should take its place on the list.

 

[saturno_v]

Thanks Cleetus for posting the list, I should have done it myself.

 

[saturno_v]

Service life is not necessarily important.

The Roman gladius, for example, was the standard service weapon of the Roman empire for perhaps 600 years, yet it is far inferior to an M14.

Service life was actually an important part of the evaluation if you watch the videos here:

http://military.discovery.com/videos/top-10-rifles/

Mosin inferior to an M14 in what sense?? The two rifles are not even comparable, there are like 60 years of difference between the two.....
Among its contemporary rivals, the Mosin fares pretty well....

 

[saturno_v]

the top four are a tossup (AR, AK, Garand, FAL, in alphabetical order). the next 6 are so far behind them it hardly matters. but yeah, i would have included the mosin in that list.

Taliv

I totally agree...immediately after the top 4 you mentioned, I would have included the Mosin, just behind the Mauser 98k, well ahead of the M-14 or the 1903 Springfield IMHO.

 

[Pony Express]

I think that show is a load of crap...Seems more like most popular rifles than "best".

But yes, I think the Mosin should be somewhere in the top 10, by their standards at least.

 

[taliv]

eh, ok... toss the mauser in there and make it a top 5 tossup.

 

[car15bill]

oh come on, no love for the m1/m2 carbine? the first shorter range, high capacity rifle? or the henry or spencer, the first REPEATING combat rifles?

 

[ChronoCube]

Also, over 30 million Mosins were produced -- far more than the Enfield or K98k. Given the amount of action that took place on the Eastern Front, it deserves the title of "the rifle that won WW2."

 

[ozarkhillbilly]

Yes the Mosin was produced in large numbers but it is an inferior rifle to the 1903, K98 and the Enfield. I doubt that the M14 would have been included had it not come out of retirement for the latest Middle East excursions.

 

[saturno_v]

....but it is an inferior rifle to .....

Depends on what you mean by "inferior"...not smooth as a Mauser or Enfield action?? ...Yes, but more powerful than the 303 British, probably more reliable even than a Mauser and it can be as accurate if not more...

It balances exceptionally well, better than the Enfield or the Mauser IMHO.

 

[Dambugg]

The 30 carbine should be on that list. It helped pave the way for the m16 and ak 47, being a lighter weapon that was less physically taxing on the shooter.

The mosin should also be on that list. I can't see how it's inferior to the k98 as the mosin was more dependable in cold weather.

 

[cleetus03]

Mosin Nagant=

"the rifle that won WW2."

No Way!......please throw that Nostalgia image out your head, cuz once the PPSH-41 burp gun started cranking out the factories in 1941 it became the best thing since sliced bread to those ole Ruskies.

The Soviet brass loved the "Pa Pa Shaw" so much, they equipped ENTIRE divisions with it during the the latter period of the war. Hell often times the Soviet factories would make 2 ppsh barrel's by cutting up 1 mosin nagant's.

The Soviet forces officially used the Mosin-Nagant 1930G as their standard issue rifle, but in practice the Soviet forces issued the PPSh-1941G submachine gun to a much larger extent than the Mosin-Nagants, eventually effectively replacing the rifle as the standard weapon for Soviet forces. http://www.littlefoxy.org/html/body_wwii.html

P.S. Oh yeah and Besides the point, American Military logistics & ALL who served won WW2 not a damn rifle

 

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

I'd dump the Steyr AUG and put in the SKS

 

[owlhoot]

The Steyr AUG has no business on the list. I owned one for several years (semiauto) and found nothing to love about it. Moreover, it has no combat record to speak of. It has not influenced history, and it was not the first bullpup design.

As much as I like the Springfield 03, it does not belong on the list. It copied the Mauser design in most aspects and had a very limited combat run. It was chambered in the .30-06 round but that is not reason enough to include the 03 on the list. But it is a sweet rifle.

I've owned many combat rifles and the M14 is my favorite, but it does not belong on the list. It broke no new ground and was essential an extension of the Garand. It has no significant combat record, and while it introduced the .308 cartridge, that is not sufficient reason to include it on the list.

The Strumgewehr 44 makes the list only because it was the first "assault" rifle. It entered the war too late in too small numbers to have an impact on the war. But the Russians were quick to see its value. It was the daddy of the AK47. For that reason it belongs as most influential if not best.

The British SMLE was a fine rifle and state of the art in WWI but we can't have three bolt actions claiming to be the best. Nevertheless, the Brits had a far flung empire in those days and the SMLE helped hold the empire together. Plus it was faster than a Mauser to operate and extremely rugged and reliable. So I'll leave it.

Most "top ten" lists suck. This one sucks more that most.

A battle rifle has to be judged against its contemporaries. It should contribute to firearms design which is to say, it should advance the genre. It should do its job better than its competition. It should help make history. None of the three mentioned rifles did those things.

I wouldn't put the Mosin on the best list. It broke no new ground. It didn't play much of a part in WWI. Russia dropped out of that one early without making much of an impact. But the rifle was used in the revolution by both the Reds and the Whites.

In WWII Russia very early learned that the submachine gun was the way to go when the Finns kicked their collective ass. Russia then made an effort to equip as many soldiers as possible with a sub gun. They had a much higher percentage of troops so equiped than did any other army in the war. They had, however, more cannon fodder than they had submachine guns so the Mosin was widely issued - and it gave a good account of itself. But in WWII the Mauser and Enfield and Mosin were behind the curve. They were WWI guns and were far outclassed by the Garand. The Garand was the pre-emminent battle rifle of that war.

Evidently this was a best battle rifle of the 20th century list.

 

[saturno_v]

but we can't have three bolt actions claiming to be the best.

I do not see much logic there...in the list there are several fully automatic rifles (AK, AR, FAL, M14, etc...)....too many??

The Mosin (contemporary to the Mauser) introduced the first successful smokeless service cartridge (the 8 mm Lebel was an imperfect design which didn't lasted long)

The cartridge interrupter was another innovation to prevent rim lock in rimmed cartridges

Sub-machine guns or not, the Russians did credit the Mosin (easy to produce in massive numbers, significant psycological effects on the enemy troops by the snipers equipped with it) as one of the important factors that helped them win the war.

This is an end of the war Soviet propaganda video, "The Rifle of Great Victories"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdxbMopm1lI

The Mosin did make history indeed

It did help the Finns in kicking Russia's behind too.

I do not see the Garand as a rifle that many other design were inspired from....for example, nobody used an internal clip for an auto/semiauto rifle, weight issues, etc..

The Sturmgewehr 44 was much more innovative in that regard and it was truly a trendsetter for future design...the world real first automatic assault rifle.

 

[peyton]

I agree with owlhoot, the AUG has not seen combat use.

 

[Sav .250]

One man`s list is another man`s .........hey, you left on off.

 

[Tim the student]

As the great Tom Brands would say, "the only way you deserve it is if you earn it."

Which the Mosin has done, IMO.

 

[nathan]

AUG should be relegated to police and SWAT work.