Shot real Black powder for first time, I'm unimpressed

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Loyalist Dave said:
I get the Graf & Son's powder as it's now made by GOEX,
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Amazing the way they flip flop sources. Graf black used to be Schutzen.

A friend started me with Swiss No 4 (1 1/2 Fg) and it did very well in my .38-55 and .40-65.
I tried Goex FFFg trying to get more velocity so the .38 might knock down more MS rams, but accuracy was not nearly as good. I gave the rest to a friend, it is about as good as 4F for the pan of a flintlock.

I shot some Schutzen only because I won a can at a match. It did not show me anything.

Before the Hodgdon buyout, Goex was making Express premium powder. I have read that OE is only partway back to the work they put in on Express.

I have never sullied my rifles with fake powder (Although I did shoot smokeless in the .38-55 when it was my CAS single shot side match gun.)
I have in revolvers, though. Black Mag 3 was awful to work with but it gave me the best accuracy I ever got out of a S&W New Model No 3 .38-44 Target. Triple 7 was pretty good in .44-40.
 
I left a rem 1858 NMA loaded with pyrodex for over 4 years.
It was left at a hunting lodge and used as a noisemaker for
occasional rummaging bears. When I shot it out to clean and
reload, 5 cylinders went off but noticeably under powered but
not squibb. One chamber misfired. That was decent since
five of six functioned. However, in the past I have had better
ignition,consistently with black powder. You can store it longer
and it still goes bang. Note: to get that "crack" sound and best
power from Black powder it needs to be compressed well.
Also, you can full load with 4f powder and when compressed it
has increased power over 3f (also see the older Lyman Blackpowder
Books for loads with 4f). Grafs now has store brand by Goex cheap.
 
I ended up moving to a place where the shooting range was a hair over an hour one way so my NMA was left loaded with T7 for 6 years before I finally drove out there. I’m in Texas where it’s humid, and all went off with just as much pizzazz as ever, though my group deteriorated.

Using 4F may give a higher velocity, but it seems to tend to give poorer accuracy. Even Ruger stated this with his Old Army in the handbook.

Using some standard grade 4F powder would not even closely resemble a sporting grade 3F. Using 3F Olde Eynsford and T7 I see no reason for anything else, though I’ll one day try Swiss, and their 4F as it’s the only sporting grade I know of that I can get. Swiss is more expensive and 3F is doing me nicely. My 5.5” NMA is in the realm of the standard .45 ACP. That’s quite acceptable.

Foremost to me is that my firearm choice be capable, even if that means a bit light, which for me was .44 Spl performance. Right after that is most accurate load. What I’ve found is both of my revolvers seem to have a preferred powder charge regardless of projectile type or weight. So I use a ball to figure out the most accurate charge, figure out the excess space, and create a bullet using lead to take up the excess. My NMA and ROA have very similar excess space so they easily share a universal design that looks to be about 230 grns +/- 5 or so and that’s with a weighed 33 grns of Olde E for the NMA and 38 for the ROA. That’s a .45 Schofield +P and a .45 Colt with a lighter bullet. One thing I haven’t noticed is speak of using 2F like we so often hear these days. During the Civil War they were using Hazards for some of their paper cartridges, but high was found to be 4F and as energetic as Swiss, 36 grns pushing a 211 grn bullet. I’ve heard it said they kept neutering the .45 Colt because of recoil so I can see dropping down to a rifle grade powder, even more so if it were energetic powder to begin with. And from what I see quoted as the original 255 grn bullet pushed by 40 grns producing something like 920 FPS tells me it’s not like standard Goex. No doubt powders varied then as they do now.
 
I started shooting BP in the early 1970s and have used just GOEX and latter a little Grafs. I got lucky and held a couple of national records in pistol events and one in rifle silhouette. Back then we didn't have the selection we have now, but some mighty fine scores were shot with plain ol GOEX.

I shoot BP for hunting and targets, not personal protection, so I'm not concerned with energy or velocity. My 54 flintlock rifle has all that's needed. I one time used my own 50 cal 10" barrel percussion pistol to take a deer. I had a 495 RB and 50 grs of 3F GOEX. It went about 3 or 4 hops and was dead. One of my 9MM or 45s are strapped on for PP, not a BP revolver. The autos conceal better than a BP 6 gun, don't weigh as much, have more shots, and are more reliable. The right tool for the job.
 
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I would like to try black powder ,but haven't been able to get any that being said ,I have pirodex and reloaded 45 cal shells with it with no problem,but soon as I get home im cleaning them,which I like, its part of the game
 
I don't understand why so many people claim to have cleanup problems with Pyrodex. A couple of passes with a bore mop and my bores are clean and shiny. T7 is almost double the price of Pyrodex here and I refuse to pay that much for a sub. I only use Swiss and Pyrodex.
 
The advantages of black powder in my experience: cleaner burning, less strain on the gun (historically valid velocities), and smaller Standard Deviation in velocity with corresponding better accuracy.

777 is good for popping soda bottles and not much else, which is fine for some shooters. It hits harder when loaded hot, but it also wears the gun faster. In a .36, 20 grains of 777 gives an approximation of historical velocities for fully loaded chambers. 21 grains of 777 would be a decent carry choice, since it hits with .38 special power at 9 mm velocity (~1100 fps). Those faster pills give more smack on the target. A full chamber of 777 is ill advised, since it launches an 83 grain roundball at 1,300+ feet per second with 300+ foot pounds. It puts a hurt on both the target and the gun. Equal and opposite reaction and all that. Open tops aren’t magnums.
 
misskitty2 said:
I would like to try black powder ,but haven't been able to get any that being said ,I have pirodex and reloaded 45 cal shells with it with no problem,but soon as I get home im cleaning them,which I like, its part of the game
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last time I purchased Black Powder was at Bass Pro. Before that I purchase 5 lbs. from a explosive dealer and had it shipped to my house. In no longer remember the explosive dealer name but I do remember they were in Sacramento CA.
 
gtrgy888 said:
The advantages of black powder in my experience: cleaner burning, less strain on the gun (historically valid velocities), and smaller Standard Deviation in velocity with corresponding better accuracy.

777 is good for popping soda bottles and not much else, which is fine for some shooters. It hits harder when loaded hot, but it also wears the gun faster. In a .36, 20 grains of 777 gives an approximation of historical velocities for fully loaded chambers. 21 grains of 777 would be a decent carry choice, since it hits with .38 special power at 9 mm velocity (~1100 fps). Those faster pills give more smack on the target. A full chamber of 777 is ill advised, since it launches an 83 grain roundball at 1,300+ feet per second with 300+ foot pounds. It puts a hurt on both the target and the gun. Equal and opposite reaction and all that. Open tops aren’t magnums.
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You're not going to hurt a steel framed gun with T7. A 35 grain load is the equivalent of about 40 grains of bp.


mr16ga said:
last time I purchased Black Powder was at Bass Pro. Before that I purchase 5 lbs. from a explosive dealer and had it shipped to my house. In no longer remember the explosive dealer name but I do remember they were in Sacramento CA.
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I get Swiss from Powder Inc but I think they're out of stock now.
 
gtrgy888 said:
The advantages of black powder in my experience: cleaner burning, less strain on the gun (historically valid velocities), and smaller Standard Deviation in velocity with corresponding better accuracy....
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Don't forget historical accuracy.
The subs are not historically accurate.
Gun powder was black powder back in the day.
I don't get all hung up on "historical accuracy" for the most part, but actually using Black Powder is the most significant part of being historically accurate in my opinion.
 
Malachi Leviticus Blue said:
Don't forget historical accuracy.
t actually using Black Powder is the most significant part of being historically accurate in my opinion.
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Unless you can't get it or can't afford it. The guns being as close to historically correct as possible is more important than the powder to me. I use Swiss when I can get it. Pyrodex when I can't.
 
hawg said:
...The guns being as close to historically correct as possible is more important than the powder to me...
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Just remember that most folk's perception of historical accuracy is based on a very small sample size.
Just look at how many authentic Colt grip shapes that can be confirmed with a bit of research.
Makes it hard to argue any grip shape being offered on repros is incorrect.
There were so many copies of the now commonly known Colts, Remingtons, etc., and one offs, or cottage industry versions that any similar configuration utilizing the technology of the day, could easily have actually existed during BP's hayday.
There were any number of unique designs coming out left and right that most folks have never heard of.
The one thing that was consistent is that they were all (at least almost all) using Black Powder.
 
Malachi Leviticus Blue said:
Just remember that most folk's perception of historical accuracy is based on a very small sample size.
Just look at how many authentic Colt grip shapes that can be confirmed with a bit of research.
Makes it hard to argue any grip shape being offered on repros is incorrect.
There were so many copies of the now commonly known Colts, Remingtons, etc., and one offs, or cottage industry versions that any similar configuration utilizing the technology of the day, could easily have actually existed during BP's hayday.
There were any number of unique designs coming out left and right that most folks have never heard of.
The one thing that was consistent is that they were all (at least almost all) using Black Powder.
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True but there's not many original brands being reproduced. Colt did make a few different styles of grips on 51's. The tail on older Pietta 51's isn't too far off but the extreme curve of the front strap is. I do have one BTW so it's not that big of a deal. What I find real fault with is brass .44's, short barreled navies and armies, brass Remingtons, adjustable sights etc. Anything that didn't exist in the old days. Pyrodex is as close to real bp as you can get without being bp.
 
As the old maid said as she kissed the cow - to each their own. The true beauty of a capitalistic society is the myriad number of choices for nearly every circumstance. If triple 7 is your preference more power to you. May your bullets fly straight and your targets always be delicious.
 
Officers'Wife said:
As the old maid said as she kissed the cow - to each their own. The true beauty of a capitalistic society is the myriad number of choices for nearly every circumstance. If triple 7 is your preference more power to you. May your bullets fly straight and your targets always be delicious.
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Very true!
Shooting real BP is important to me, but I don't look down on anyone who chooses otherwise.
I think anyone shooting any kind of front stuffer has more in common than differences.
 
I love BP, especially OE 3F. I also like Pyrodex. I was gifted 3 lbs of Pyrodex RS years ago, and I shoot it in some of my C&B revolvers. Of course it´s a no-go in the flintlock (not trying to deal with duplex charges). My powder depends on my revolver. I have an open top colt in .44 that loves the Pyrodex RS. Best groups I have ever shot at 50 yards, with any handgun ever, was with about 34 grains of Pyrodex under a .454 LRB in that gun. It also gives pretty impressive velocities if I stuff to the gills and compress it a bit, and this without much loss in accuracy.

My NMA and now my 1862 police both prefer the OE, both in velocity and accuracy. So I have love for both powders. FWIW I don´t see what the fuss is with cleaning pyrodex. I´ve never had an issue. I´ve also shot my revolvers and... gasp... not immediately cleaned them. This doesn´t happen much, as I always try to clean within a day or two, but I have gone a few weeks before and nothing has turned into a solid chunk of rust. Or even had any appreciable amount of rust visible.
 
hawg said:
Unless you can't get it or can't afford it. The guns being as close to historically correct as possible is more important than the powder to me. I use Swiss when I can get it. Pyrodex when I can't.
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Swiss and Pyrodex, that's opposite ends of the spectrum. Best to the worse.
 
hawg said:
No, it's not. Pyrodex is about the same level of power as Swiss by volume. Pyrodex is chemically closest to real bp. So they're both on the same end of the spectrum.
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You're the first I've heard report that Pyrodex is significantly more energetic than "regular" BP.
Even Pyrodex's claim is that it is nearly equivalent.
 
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