Tula ammo sticking in my AR.

[christcorp]

"Believe what you want to believe. It doesn't matter to me. I was taught long ago not to argue with the ignorant. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience everytime."

So you are calling me ignorant because i refuse to accept something as true without sufficient evidence? Again, i reserve judgement until conclusive proof is offered one way or the other. And if it upsets you so much that others offer different opinions why be on a message board in the first place?

No, but you are accepting YOUR point as true, even though IT DOESN'T have sufficient evidence.

And no, the lacquer to seal around the primers and neck as a sealant, is NOT the same as the case being treated with lacquer or polymer to prevent it from corroding or the steel from rusting. chipped lacquer sealant does not mean the case lacquer/polymer chips or melts. The chemistry of the elements are different. Find me a steel case with the polymer or lacquer chipped or melted off and the steel exposed. Post a pic.

FWIW: There is brass case ammo that has a lacquer sealant around the primer and sometimes at the bullet/case neck. Again, this is different from the lacquer/polymer used to encase the steel cases to prevent rusting and corrosion.

 

[TonyAngel]

Justin, first, I'd like to apologize for the comment that I made. It was over the line and I shouldn't have said it. The only point that I was trying to make is that this is an issue that has been addressed many times over and there is no evidence whatsoever to support the conclusion that lacquer or polymer is left in the chamber when shooting steel cased ammo.

I've had quite a few friends and acquaintences that had the problem with sticking cases. In all of the cases that I was able to remedy, the fix was to retard the timing a bit. It was as simple as that. Just slowing the cycle down just a bit to allow the steel case a bit more time to contract before the extraction process began. None of their problems were associated with anything sort of gum being left in the chamber by the ammunition.

In many cases, I can tell when a rifle is going to have problems extracting steel cases just by watching the ejection pattern when shooting brass cased ammo. If the ejection pattery indicates that the rifle is over gassed, the odds are that you are going to have problems with shooting steel cased ammo.

If you look at this from the flip side and assume that your argument is true, then it could be said that everyone shooting steel cased ammo would have a build up of gum in their chamber and they should be having failures, but they aren't.

It is possible that what I'm saying might make more sense to you if you had a better undersanding of the way that an AR works, rather than just seeing it as a conglomeration of parts.

 

[JustinJ]

TonyAngel, thanks for the apology and give it no further thought.

"I've had quite a few friends and acquaintences that had the problem with sticking cases. In all of the cases that I was able to remedy, the fix was to retard the timing a bit. It was as simple as that. Just slowing the cycle down just a bit to allow the steel case a bit more time to contract before the extraction process began. None of their problems were associated with anything sort of gum being left in the chamber by the ammunition."

But isn't the counter arguement that the problem with steel that it fails to expand enough to fill the chamber as indicated by what some consider to be just carbon in the chamber? Just out of curiousity, what method did you employ to slow the timing?

"If you look at this from the flip side and assume that your argument is true, then it could be said that everyone shooting steel cased ammo would have a build up of gum in their chamber and they should be having failures, but they aren't."

Not necessarily. Quantity of ammo fired, speed of ammo fired, type of chamber (.223, 5.56 or wylde), metal of chamber, amount of lacquer on ammo, cleaning methods, are all just a few of the potential variables. Even extractor condition is going to be a variable. I just think the arguement that lacquer can cause issues makes sense. Its sort of like when the original M16s came out. The conditions under which they were being used made them prone to malfunction but obviously they did not all malfunction.

christocorp:
"No, but you are accepting YOUR point as true, even though IT DOESN'T have sufficient evidence."

What point am i accepting to be true without sufficient evidence? Saying an explanation sounds plausible is not saying it is true.

"And no, the lacquer to seal around the primers and neck as a sealant, is NOT the same as the case being treated with lacquer or polymer to prevent it from corroding or the steel from rusting. chipped lacquer sealant does not mean the case lacquer/polymer chips or melts. The chemistry of the elements are different."

I realize that lacquer was used all over to prevent rust but was also under the impression it was used a sealant as well. If the sealant is another material what is it? If the only lacquer is a thin coat on the case then it may be very difficult to see even if one is able to make it run with heat.


"FWIW: There is brass case ammo that has a lacquer sealant around the primer and sometimes at the bullet/case neck."

Yes, i believe it, whatever it is, is used on the primer of Yugo brass cased 7.62 x 39 ammo.

 

[W.E.G.]

That stuff is gonna stick in a fair percentage of guns, even if they coated it in gold.

The lacquer and poly BOTH stick in my guns.

My extractor is strong enough to rip the rim right off the case.
Doubt a "stronger" extractor would make a whit of difference.

 

[TonyAngel]

WEG, the extractor is obviously not your problem as yours looks like it's doing what it's supposed to. Have you tried slowing things down a bit to compensate. Maybe a heavier buffer/bolt carrier?

 

[Ben86]

I finally did have a "Tula" induced malfunction yesterday in my AR. It was a FTF. The 2nd or 3rd cartridge failed to be pushed from the magazine and the bolt was locked open like it was empty. It didn't even make it to the feed ramp. This happened in my aluminum magazine, not any of my pmags. So I figure that the rough poly coated surface of the case interacted with the somewhat rough aluminum surface of the magazine and created enough friction to prevent the bolt from chambering another round. This doesn't scare me away from this ammo, but I sure don't mind paying an extra few $ to get something brass cased. It was a good, unexpected malfunction drill. I also felt a few powder puff underloaded rounds too.

 

[Onmilo]

Sorry guys.
I don't want to read four pages of replies so I'll just leave this here.

O.P., if Tula ammo is sticking in your AR15 chamber,,,,
STOP USING TULA AMMO and buy something else!

 

[dodge]

When I first got my Stag Model 3 I had some problems with Wolf ammo. I placed a "H" buffer and an an extractor upgrade kit into it and got a chamber brush. No more problems, the rifle will eat anything I feed it.

 

[Kwanger]

In many cases, I can tell when a rifle is going to have problems extracting steel cases just by watching the ejection pattern when shooting brass cased ammo. If the ejection pattery indicates that the rifle is over gassed, the odds are that you are going to have problems with shooting steel cased ammo.

While we are on this topic, it's also worth a mention that rifles that are undergassed are also likely to have an issue with Russian steel case, due to it being generally weaker loaded than western ammo. In this scenario, 'sticking' cases won't be the problem; issues will more than likely be failure to lock the bolt open on the last round, failure to pick up the next round, or even the bolt only partially picking up the next round and then slipping off causing a misfeed (which people often mistake for a doublefeed), or even possible stovepiping/FTE issues if the gas running through the system is too weak to cycle with weaker ammo.

If these symptoms present themselves, again it can usually be remedied by a system tweak - but in this case going lighter on the buffer and/or spring. Its worth noting that some high end "Milspec" rifles may have this issue....the reason being they were designed to shoot full power 5.56 Nato rounds, not cheapo Russian 223. A lot of people with these rifles immediately put the blame on the ammo....but oftentimes a simple swap of a buffer to a carbine buffer when using cheap ammo will fix the issue right up.

 

[christcorp]

In the distant past, I would have agreed 100% on the "Weaker" russian ammo. But the times have changed. Average wolf ammo 55g is pushing 3240 fps. Silver bear 62 grain is even pushing 3140 fps. The slowest I've seen is in the 3050 fps range.

You'll find that federal, remington, winchester, fiocci, and even military Lake City 55 grain, is running in the 3100-3250 fps range. Most of the steel case ammo today is pushing about the same as the brass. Including the 5.56 ammo. You can look at sportsman's guide and a number of other sights. They list all the velocities for their ammo.

Now; gas pressure isn't only about velocity. It has mainly to do with has fast or slow the powder burns. Unfortunately, you are never going to get ammo manufacturers to even tell you the powder they use. A lot of it is designed in house. The only thing close, would be a reloading manual. But all in all, the steel case ammo is relatively the same nowaday as the brass ammo is. Between 3040-3240 fps. Same as most brass. Is there some out there that can be a little weak? Yes, definitely. But it's not as much of an issue as it once was. Is russian ammo weaker than my American Brass ammo? probably, but it's gotten so close that it's almost not an issue any longer.

Then again, there's still some people who say they are shooting lacquer cases with sealant. There is definitely some still around, but that too is getting rare. My guess is some people bought 1000 rounds of lacquered wolf ammo about 2-3 years ago, and they're still on the same case of ammo. When I buy a case of .223 ammo (1000 rounds), it will last at the most, 3 outings to the range. And that's only if I'm shooting more than one caliber. If I only take my .223 rifles, I'll shoot 500+ rounds in 2-3 hours. The only lacquer coated ammo I've shot in almost 2 years, has been some Barnaul true 5.56 surplus ammo. (It ran fine by the way). Just about everything I find to buy is polymer coated or zinc plated.

 

[Kwanger]

Good point about the powders. And you are right, at least anything that comes from Barnaul (WPA, Brown/Silver Bear, MFS, Monarch) is usually decent and consistent - it's the Tula produced stuff where you get most of the inconsistencies and frequent really slow rounds. Nowadays though, unless you are buying at Walmart, it is easy to avoid Tula produced ammo, with both Wolf and Bear now getting supplied by Barnaul...happy days for all of us.

My point was that its nice to to have the ability to change out buffers and/or springs to suit whatever you are running....a point often overlooked.

Regarding the lacquer coated ammo...Barnaul are still producing it as Brown Bear, I just bought some the other day, new production (I go through about 1k a month). The sealant is still on the primer. The Wolf WPA ammo which is also produced at Barnaul since Wolf parted ways with Tula 6mos to a year ago comes in a polymer coated case and does not have a sealant on it anywhere.