Tula ammo sticking in my AR.
- Thread starter jbkebert
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JustinJ
Member
A direct flame to a spent case is anything but indicative of how the lacquer behaves when exposed to highly heated metal. If you want to do a real test remove the powder and primer without firing the round and apply heat with a heat gun or in a manner that does not burn the lacquer. An open flame will result in a chemical reaction instead of state change.
christcorp
Member
For what it's worth, I have even pulled the bullet, powder, and primer, and tried boiling the polymer and lacquer off, and that didn't even make it sticky. Sorry, but the small amount of time that the round is in the chamber, which is only at it's hottest when it's fired, just isn't enough to melt it. I've got 3 rifles and 2 pistols that I shoot steel case ammo through. I've never had melted lacquer or polymer come about. Residue, powder, carbon.... yes. Lacquer or polymer? No.
JustinJ
Member
I don't mean to nitpick but i assume the chamber of a barrel, in addition to other moving parts of a semiauto, regularly exceed 212 F.
In addition to looser chamber clearances of soviet era weapon designs the 7.62 x 39 chamber walls are relatively steep compared to those of a .223. Theoretically this is why lacquer does not cause 7.62 cases to stick but can cause an issue with .223.
Reportedly this is why wolf and other manufacturers switched to polymer coating.
In addition to looser chamber clearances of soviet era weapon designs the 7.62 x 39 chamber walls are relatively steep compared to those of a .223. Theoretically this is why lacquer does not cause 7.62 cases to stick but can cause an issue with .223.
Reportedly this is why wolf and other manufacturers switched to polymer coating.
I have a Bushmaster, S&W and a BCM upper (and BCG) on a CNMG lower. I estimate that I or my family put at least 1000 rnds through each gun last year and most of it was steel cased ammo. It was a mix of Wolf, Tula and Bear. 6 or 7 different brands of domestic brass cased ammo was tried as well. There was absolutely no problems shooting steel cased ammo until....last month.
I had a Wolf case get stuck in my BCM. I'm not a fanatic about cleaning my AR's after each range trip and this rifle had about 400 rnds through it since the last cleaning before the stuck case. It was very hot that day and I had done a decent amount of shooting. The extractor ripped off part of the case. 5 minutes later I had the case punched out and 10 minutes (brief cleaning with a chamber brush) or so later I was back to shooting. No more issues.
The case had a lot of carbon (spots) all over it.
Laquer, polymer, etc wasn't an issue. The problem was a dirty chamber from shooting steel cased ammo that doesn't fully expand to fill the chamber when fired. This results in a dirtier chamber and can cause this issue. No biggie. It's an easy fix if you have a properly stocked range bag and my ammo costs are still 1/2 of what they would be if I was shooting the cheapest brass cased ammo. Not every day at the range is a bench rest day.
I wouldn't trust steel cased ammo in my AR's for anything important but sometimes you are not trying for 1" groups at 100 yds and just want to do a bit of plinking. Sometimes you want to train a new shooter on an AR and there's a limit to how accurately they are going to shoot. Wolf, Tula, Bear, etc is better than Hornady for these days. I will often let a shooter try out my AR just to show them it's not a machinegun and I've met a lot of hunters that really believed that my rifles were automatics before they tried them out. I hope that $4.50 box of Russian stuff that I gave up educated another shooter/voter. I'd be a little leary about spotting someone a $20 box or Hornady or even a $10 of PMC.
I'm not crazy about Tula and prefer Brown Bear if I'm shooting steel cased ammo. I wouldn't use the Russian stuff for home defense or anything important because I know that there is a chance of one day having the case stick in the chamber. For casual plinking it's ok.
Some say that the Russian stuff is only made for AK's. That might be true if you're using it for defensive purposes. The AK family of firearms (and SKS for that matter) has a larger extractor that grabs a larger area of the rim when extracting. This should help prevent tearing the rim off of the case if it's sticking.
I had a Wolf case get stuck in my BCM. I'm not a fanatic about cleaning my AR's after each range trip and this rifle had about 400 rnds through it since the last cleaning before the stuck case. It was very hot that day and I had done a decent amount of shooting. The extractor ripped off part of the case. 5 minutes later I had the case punched out and 10 minutes (brief cleaning with a chamber brush) or so later I was back to shooting. No more issues.
The case had a lot of carbon (spots) all over it.
Laquer, polymer, etc wasn't an issue. The problem was a dirty chamber from shooting steel cased ammo that doesn't fully expand to fill the chamber when fired. This results in a dirtier chamber and can cause this issue. No biggie. It's an easy fix if you have a properly stocked range bag and my ammo costs are still 1/2 of what they would be if I was shooting the cheapest brass cased ammo. Not every day at the range is a bench rest day.
I wouldn't trust steel cased ammo in my AR's for anything important but sometimes you are not trying for 1" groups at 100 yds and just want to do a bit of plinking. Sometimes you want to train a new shooter on an AR and there's a limit to how accurately they are going to shoot. Wolf, Tula, Bear, etc is better than Hornady for these days. I will often let a shooter try out my AR just to show them it's not a machinegun and I've met a lot of hunters that really believed that my rifles were automatics before they tried them out. I hope that $4.50 box of Russian stuff that I gave up educated another shooter/voter. I'd be a little leary about spotting someone a $20 box or Hornady or even a $10 of PMC.
I'm not crazy about Tula and prefer Brown Bear if I'm shooting steel cased ammo. I wouldn't use the Russian stuff for home defense or anything important because I know that there is a chance of one day having the case stick in the chamber. For casual plinking it's ok.
Some say that the Russian stuff is only made for AK's. That might be true if you're using it for defensive purposes. The AK family of firearms (and SKS for that matter) has a larger extractor that grabs a larger area of the rim when extracting. This should help prevent tearing the rim off of the case if it's sticking.
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gudel
Member
I wonder if people actually read his entire post, or just make an assumption that, "it's lacquer tulammo, must be the polymer melting!" He has Stag Arms 1, this thing has chrome lined barrel.
to jbkebert, I have a brand new Stag Arms 2T upper. I shot several hundreds of Tulammo from Walmart. I had two jams with Tulammo, one jam with the Remington value pack which the round went in to the casing.
Nothing sticking or polymer melting here.
I fired about 420 rounds, about 14 mags worth of ammo total, a mix of Tulammo, Federal XM193, Walmart Remington 100 round value pack, PMC X-TAC XP193. I did not have to clean it or lube it at the range.
Just clean it up and shoot again, I ran my AR wet with BF-CLP, grease on the bolt rails. And there's a possibility you had a bad batch.
to jbkebert, I have a brand new Stag Arms 2T upper. I shot several hundreds of Tulammo from Walmart. I had two jams with Tulammo, one jam with the Remington value pack which the round went in to the casing.
Nothing sticking or polymer melting here.
I fired about 420 rounds, about 14 mags worth of ammo total, a mix of Tulammo, Federal XM193, Walmart Remington 100 round value pack, PMC X-TAC XP193. I did not have to clean it or lube it at the range.
Just clean it up and shoot again, I ran my AR wet with BF-CLP, grease on the bolt rails. And there's a possibility you had a bad batch.
JustinJ
Member
"I wonder if people actually read his entire post, or just make an assumption that, "it's lacquer tulammo, must be the polymer melting!" He has Stag Arms 1, this thing has chrome lined barrel."
I wonder if you actually read post #20 in regards to why the lacquer subject is being discussed.
I wonder if you actually read post #20 in regards to why the lacquer subject is being discussed.
They don't work well in all guns (different chamber specs maybe?), but my bushmaster 5.56 AR eats them up without a problem. I find them to be no dirtier than other mainstream brands of plinking ammo. They save me lots of $ for target ammo and work fine, I'm not complaining.
If you really don't like them be sure to spread the word that they are terrible so that the price doesn't go up any time soon.
If you really don't like them be sure to spread the word that they are terrible so that the price doesn't go up any time soon.
JustinJ
Member
JG Sales and others have 1000 rounds of brass .223 for $290. What is steel cased going for? $250 per thousand? At those prices i'll stick with brass.
sansone
Member
just FYI..
I have had corrosive commie ammo come from boxes labeled non-corrosive.
I have had corrosive commie ammo come from boxes labeled non-corrosive.
JustinJ
Member
Sansone, were they factory labeled boxes as noncorrosive and how did you determine they were in fact corrosive?
Sorry, but I tend to believe along the same lines as christcorp. I've taken a heat gun, then a propane torch to a steel case to see if anything melted, boiled up or flaked off and nothing happened besides a bit of discoloration from the heat.
Unless you can link to an example that shows lacquer or polymer melting off of steel cases, your point is invalid.
Boxo'truth covered this situation, and the issues had absolutely nothing to do with lacquer or polymer, FYI: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu18.htm
sansone
Member
yes factory labeled boxes, and any experienced shooter can determine corrosive ammo.
JustinJ
Member
".... any experienced shooter can determine corrosive ammo. "
That is not an answer. Did you recognize it as ammo you had read to be corrosive before, was there a particular smell, did it rust your gun, etc?
bri, what type of ammo did you do your experiments to? Polymer or lacquer? Was it done to fired cases? Do you have pictures of the results? If not then your point must be invalid. It works both ways. And there is absolutely no question that lacquer can "flake" off as can be seen by all the red flakes inside the receiver of an AK after shooting lacquered ammo.
Boxo'truth's evidence is anything but conclusive. They accepted the black material to be comprised entirely of burnt carbon simply because a message board "expert" said so? As i've said all along, my point is that the the lacquer issue sounds plausible to me but unlike others i am not claiming to have conclusive answers.
That is not an answer. Did you recognize it as ammo you had read to be corrosive before, was there a particular smell, did it rust your gun, etc?
bri, what type of ammo did you do your experiments to? Polymer or lacquer? Was it done to fired cases? Do you have pictures of the results? If not then your point must be invalid. It works both ways. And there is absolutely no question that lacquer can "flake" off as can be seen by all the red flakes inside the receiver of an AK after shooting lacquered ammo.
Boxo'truth's evidence is anything but conclusive. They accepted the black material to be comprised entirely of burnt carbon simply because a message board "expert" said so? As i've said all along, my point is that the the lacquer issue sounds plausible to me but unlike others i am not claiming to have conclusive answers.
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sansone
Member
we're answering with opinions of course. You just need more
in my case sight & smell determined the ammo was corrosive
in my case sight & smell determined the ammo was corrosive
gotboostvr
Member
Steel doesn't fireform to the chamber like brass will, more gas gets around the shell casing while it's in the action since it doesn't form as tight a seal, the residue in the chamber is carbon deposits from the gases, not melted polymer.
JustinJ
Member
"Steel doesn't fireform to the chamber like brass will, more gas gets around the shell casing while it's in the action since it doesn't form as tight a seal, the residue in the chamber is carbon deposits from the gases, not melted polymer."
What method was used to identify components of the residue?
What method was used to identify components of the residue?
christcorp
Member
The red flakes aren't lacquer from the casing. It's the sealant around some of the primers, and/or bullet neck. And those flakes aren't going to make a case get stuck in the chamber. "Which is what this conversation is about".
JustinJ, you seem to be bending over backwards to argue in favor of a myth that has been proven to be untrue. As I've said, my AR has over 4000 rounds through it and most of it has been steel cased ammo and I don't have any sort of lacquer build up in my chamber.
You also point out in one of your posts that Wolf switched from a lacquer coating to a polymer coating and use this as a point in favor of your argument. I'd would like to point out that the last case of Hornady practice ammo that I got was loaded by Hornady using lacquered cases. I kind of have the feeling that Hornady wouldn't have done this if melting lacquer was a problem.
You also point out in one of your posts that Wolf switched from a lacquer coating to a polymer coating and use this as a point in favor of your argument. I'd would like to point out that the last case of Hornady practice ammo that I got was loaded by Hornady using lacquered cases. I kind of have the feeling that Hornady wouldn't have done this if melting lacquer was a problem.
MikeS.
Member
"Even if the cases are lacquered instead of polymer, they aren't going to melt or "gum up the works". That's simply internet wive's tales."
No it isn't a tale. Last Fall I was shooting a friends FA M-16 with Brown Bear. After about 120 rounds fired fairly fast on full auto I had a jam. It was a stuck case. I cleared the jam and fire 4 more rounds and got another.
I took the upper off and cleaned the chamber well. Fired about another 100 and got another stuck case. Cleaned the chamber and put the M-16 away. I have 3 friends on arfcom that witnessed all of this. Including the owner.
No it isn't a tale. Last Fall I was shooting a friends FA M-16 with Brown Bear. After about 120 rounds fired fairly fast on full auto I had a jam. It was a stuck case. I cleared the jam and fire 4 more rounds and got another.
I took the upper off and cleaned the chamber well. Fired about another 100 and got another stuck case. Cleaned the chamber and put the M-16 away. I have 3 friends on arfcom that witnessed all of this. Including the owner.
Mike, no one is saying you will never exerpience a stuck case with steel cased ammo. What IS being debated is the possible reasons for this. Your experience, while frustrating I'm sure, doesn't prove anything as to WHY your gun was jamming. Nothing you said in any way conclusively determines the lacquer as being responsible for the stuck cases. Any number of things could have lead to the failures. Immediately blaming the lacquer is suspect unless you have actual proof it was the definitive cause. I'm sure the witnesses would back up your version of what happened, but the reasons behind the failures are not obvious
christcorp
Member
Yea; what dave said. Not arguing that you didn't have a stuck case. Just telling you that it ISN'T the lacquer "melting" off of the case and gumming up the chamber.
JustinJ
Member
"The red flakes aren't lacquer from the casing. It's the sealant around some of the primers, and/or bullet neck."
The red sealant is the lacquer we are speaking of. That is exactly why they apply the lacquer...to seal the neck and primer.
" And those flakes aren't going to make a case get stuck in the chamber. "Which is what this conversation is about"."
No but they do demonstrate the lacquers ability to flake off and get into the gun.
"JustinJ, you seem to be bending over backwards to argue in favor of a myth that has been proven to be untrue."
No, i'm bending over backwards to hold an equal standard of evaluation to both sides of the arguement.
"You also point out in one of your posts that Wolf switched from a lacquer coating to a polymer coating and use this as a point in favor of your argument. I'd would like to point out that the last case of Hornady practice ammo that I got was loaded by Hornady using lacquered cases. I kind of have the feeling that Hornady wouldn't have done this if melting lacquer was a problem."
According to hornaday they use polymer: http://www.hornady.com/store/7.62X39-123-gr-SST/
The red sealant is the lacquer we are speaking of. That is exactly why they apply the lacquer...to seal the neck and primer.
" And those flakes aren't going to make a case get stuck in the chamber. "Which is what this conversation is about"."
No but they do demonstrate the lacquers ability to flake off and get into the gun.
"JustinJ, you seem to be bending over backwards to argue in favor of a myth that has been proven to be untrue."
No, i'm bending over backwards to hold an equal standard of evaluation to both sides of the arguement.
"You also point out in one of your posts that Wolf switched from a lacquer coating to a polymer coating and use this as a point in favor of your argument. I'd would like to point out that the last case of Hornady practice ammo that I got was loaded by Hornady using lacquered cases. I kind of have the feeling that Hornady wouldn't have done this if melting lacquer was a problem."
According to hornaday they use polymer: http://www.hornady.com/store/7.62X39-123-gr-SST/
JustinJ, you are right. They are now using the polymer coated cases. The last ones that I bought in .223 were lacquer coated. It seems to me that Hornady followed Wolf in changing their cases. It also seems to me that it was a marketing decision. I would imagine that a lot of people are not using the lacquered ammo due to BS spread on the internet and other sources and they saw this as a simple fix.
Believe what you want to believe. It doesn't matter to me. I was taught long ago not to argue with the ignorant. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience everytime.
Believe what you want to believe. It doesn't matter to me. I was taught long ago not to argue with the ignorant. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience everytime.
JustinJ
Member
"Believe what you want to believe. It doesn't matter to me. I was taught long ago not to argue with the ignorant. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience everytime."
So you are calling me ignorant because i refuse to accept something as true without sufficient evidence? Again, i reserve judgement until conclusive proof is offered one way or the other. And if it upsets you so much that others offer different opinions why be on a message board in the first place?
So you are calling me ignorant because i refuse to accept something as true without sufficient evidence? Again, i reserve judgement until conclusive proof is offered one way or the other. And if it upsets you so much that others offer different opinions why be on a message board in the first place?
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