TV COPS: Worst gun info ever
- Thread starter Waffen
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Biaxident
Member
Do you know something the rest of us don't? Maybe you should clarify, because a level II vest will stop most types of handgun ammo.
Godfather
Member
The best...10 years ago "Anti-assault rifle" documentary by State Police
Ten years ago or so, I saw a documentary promoted by the State Police here in Michigan. The trooper loaded up an AR-15 with FMJs. Then, turns toward a wall of loosely stacked cinder block...not concrete, and not cemented together...just stacked to look like a wall. The message was, do we want people who possess "Small arms" that are not small arms, but weapon for assault, and weapons that can cut your brick house down? They also had a "wall" of bricks stacked. So, the trooper proceeds to cut the two walls down...pulverizing the cinder block and bricks. Now, anyone who knows anything about cement and concrete, brick, etc, know that UNDER PREASSURE they are FAR less likely to break, crack. Most times, the bullets will simply bounce off and right back in your face. Later, someone from the NRA confronted the trooper regarding why they didn't use a real building...the forced answer...the truth FINALLY was forced out! "The bullets might bounce back".
Added the following:
By the way, two videos that demonstrate the TRUTH of firearms ballistics:
1) "DEADLY EFFECTS: Firearms and Firepower", ANITE Productions.
2) "DEADLY EFFECTS: Wound Ballistics", ANITE Productions.
The best part shows that a 12 gauge shotgun WILL almost always penetrate a car fully. Nearly NO RIFLE, except the .50 BMG will! Also, most pistols will NOT, and the mith of the .357 "armor pierce" that cracks engine block...bull poopie. Also, levels of vest protection and the demonstration that when struck by a bullet, the person will NOT fall down by force. They show bullet proof glass, the whole 9 yards.
These are two pretty interesting videos. I must caution...the wound effects video is gruesome! It is good for weapon selection for CCW, but it is gruesome.
Doc2005
Ten years ago or so, I saw a documentary promoted by the State Police here in Michigan. The trooper loaded up an AR-15 with FMJs. Then, turns toward a wall of loosely stacked cinder block...not concrete, and not cemented together...just stacked to look like a wall. The message was, do we want people who possess "Small arms" that are not small arms, but weapon for assault, and weapons that can cut your brick house down? They also had a "wall" of bricks stacked. So, the trooper proceeds to cut the two walls down...pulverizing the cinder block and bricks. Now, anyone who knows anything about cement and concrete, brick, etc, know that UNDER PREASSURE they are FAR less likely to break, crack. Most times, the bullets will simply bounce off and right back in your face. Later, someone from the NRA confronted the trooper regarding why they didn't use a real building...the forced answer...the truth FINALLY was forced out! "The bullets might bounce back".
Added the following:
By the way, two videos that demonstrate the TRUTH of firearms ballistics:
1) "DEADLY EFFECTS: Firearms and Firepower", ANITE Productions.
2) "DEADLY EFFECTS: Wound Ballistics", ANITE Productions.
The best part shows that a 12 gauge shotgun WILL almost always penetrate a car fully. Nearly NO RIFLE, except the .50 BMG will! Also, most pistols will NOT, and the mith of the .357 "armor pierce" that cracks engine block...bull poopie. Also, levels of vest protection and the demonstration that when struck by a bullet, the person will NOT fall down by force. They show bullet proof glass, the whole 9 yards.
These are two pretty interesting videos. I must caution...the wound effects video is gruesome! It is good for weapon selection for CCW, but it is gruesome.
Doc2005
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GAMALOT
Member
My experience as a LE weapons instructor tells me the vast majority of LEOs are totally ignrant about weapons and dangerously under trained in their use.
It all boils down to the expense, not so much the cost of ammo but the cost of paying salaries while at the range for the training.
With the way things are going I suspect LEOs will be better suited to have degrees in psychology rather then proficiency in weapons. Both would be a much better combination.
I always love it when I see TV cops running around in shoot outs with the slide in the locked back position- out of ammo or the best one was on Homicide, Life on the street when I saw the detective in full ready with his Glock aimed and both thumbs locked together on the back strap-OUCH!!!!
Gary
It all boils down to the expense, not so much the cost of ammo but the cost of paying salaries while at the range for the training.
With the way things are going I suspect LEOs will be better suited to have degrees in psychology rather then proficiency in weapons. Both would be a much better combination.
I always love it when I see TV cops running around in shoot outs with the slide in the locked back position- out of ammo or the best one was on Homicide, Life on the street when I saw the detective in full ready with his Glock aimed and both thumbs locked together on the back strap-OUCH!!!!
Gary
ny32182
Member
The 5.56 there is M855, *not* full AP. Not sure about the others.
Listed in the "other auctions" is high explosive ammo in .223, .308, etc. I'd be real cautious/skeptical.
I believe it works like this. Someone correct me if I'm wrong: AP rifle ammo is legal. AP pistol ammo is not. However, most rifle cartridges have been chambered in a handgun at one time or another (.223, .308, 7.62x39 included). This allows the ATF to classify these rifle rounds as "handgun rounds", making new sale of AP ammo in these calibers illegal. There may be some old preban stuff floating around, but personally I really just wouldn't believe that anyone selling ammo as "AP" is really doing anything but BSing their product in an attempt to make some extra money.
It will defiantly not. I have shot a 20 inch diameter power pole on my ranch before with a SKS at 100 yards, and the bullet was still visible. I doubt that a 7.62x39 FMJ,HP,or SP would even begin to penetrate wood like that. Heck, my 30-06 won't go through it.
hillbilly
the difference between cop and gun knowledge vs taxi driver and engine knowledge is that no national group is attempting to take away our right to drive with the logic that taxi cab drivers are available with a phone call, more familiar with the area, and highly trained in automotive issues.
the reverse with cops and guns is true. Many gun banners say that guns should be reserved for those who truely know a lot about them, the police, who will unfailingly come the instant we dial 911 and if we try to have guns ourselves we will just shoot ourselves while cleaning them due to our ignorance, or our kids will shoot themselves.
Hence, pointing out that police are human, just like everyone else, equally likely to be gun literate, or not, and be honest, or not, as pretty much everyone else, and not a supermoral superskilled invididual worthy of rights and responsibilties beyond what the dirty masses can have
the difference between cop and gun knowledge vs taxi driver and engine knowledge is that no national group is attempting to take away our right to drive with the logic that taxi cab drivers are available with a phone call, more familiar with the area, and highly trained in automotive issues.
the reverse with cops and guns is true. Many gun banners say that guns should be reserved for those who truely know a lot about them, the police, who will unfailingly come the instant we dial 911 and if we try to have guns ourselves we will just shoot ourselves while cleaning them due to our ignorance, or our kids will shoot themselves.
Hence, pointing out that police are human, just like everyone else, equally likely to be gun literate, or not, and be honest, or not, as pretty much everyone else, and not a supermoral superskilled invididual worthy of rights and responsibilties beyond what the dirty masses can have
Taurus 66
Member
Why don't you put down the el cheapo smoke wagon and try a "real" rifle capable of chambering the round to its fullest potential. Try a bolt action, preferrably in 26" barel length, 'anthen' get back to me. A utility pole is dry wood with a dose of creosote for preservative. If you ever had to take cover behind one in a high powered firefight, especially involving .30 caliber brands, you're going to be in serious trouble! A living tree at equal diameter would offer much more resistance to a bullet, because of the water density.
UberPhLuBB
Member
I'd define it as what most police officers wear, when they wear armor at all. I dunno, is IIIA the norm now? Kind of expensive for widespread use, I'd guess most departments use older armor (which is also weaker from age).
"Most" are stopped by II? You sure? Also taking into account the age of armor in use? I'm not trying to be a smart aleck, maybe I'm just misinformed.
Biaxident
Member
I'm sure, Uber.
Level II or IIIA are pretty much the norm now. It seems pretty common for cops to wear Level II vests with level IIIA trauma plates, actually.
Level II or IIIA are pretty much the norm now. It seems pretty common for cops to wear Level II vests with level IIIA trauma plates, actually.
Why don't you argue something relevant? Yes there are 30 cal's that will easily go through a power pole, but a 7.62x39 I do not believe is one of them. Wich is the point of the original topic. The one I shot was not "dry" as you will find some. I believe it was a newer cedar pole, however this was some years ago.
My 30-06 would not penetrate the pole, it's a Rem700 with a 24 inch barrel, so we lack 100fps over the 26 inch, but that shouldn’t mean the difference in complete penetration and getting stuck in the first 5 inches. Perhaps we are talking about different diameters or different wood types, but I can guarantee I have shot this pole with .30 cals and it basically laughs at them.
Either way, I don't even know why I am involved in an argument about shooting poles. I feel dumber after typing this.
How is that POSSIBLE?? I don't understand how that is possible. Someone used an AK-47 in L.A county??? That can't be true. The AK-47 is BANNED in the State of California. Such bans are in place to stop people from getting military-style rifles and using them to commit crime. I'm shocked, SHOCKED I tell you, to find out that the ban has clearly FAILED to keep firearms out of the hands of criminals! Though it seems to have succeeded in keeping military style firearms of MY hands.
Seems to me the experiment did not work. MAY I HAVE MY RIGHTS BACK NOW, MR. SENATOR????
Sorry. Had to rant there. I'll let you guys get back to the thread topic now.
Spreadfire Arms
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i think there is some sort of "expectation" for a police officer to know alot about guns, even though the police academy, or at least the one i attended many moons ago, did not spend a whole lot of time (if any) on weapon recognition, ammunition, etc. the only thing they spent time on in regards to weapons is the ones they were carrying. that meant we spent time on a Remington 860, a wheelgun (in the event we had to shoot our partner's gun and he happened to have a wheelgun), and a semiauto pistol.
there are alot of officers who don't know alot about weapons, and honestly, i don't expect them to. there is very little training in this part, and most of it that they get is from another officer who learned it, be it correct or incorrect, himself.
i'll also be the first person to admit i know very little about guns outside of the ones i normally deal with. if you come to me asking about a hunting rifle i have no idea. that's not within my narrow scope of knowledge. surely most people, even gun aficionados, know everything there is to know about guns?
there are alot of officers who don't know alot about weapons, and honestly, i don't expect them to. there is very little training in this part, and most of it that they get is from another officer who learned it, be it correct or incorrect, himself.
i'll also be the first person to admit i know very little about guns outside of the ones i normally deal with. if you come to me asking about a hunting rifle i have no idea. that's not within my narrow scope of knowledge. surely most people, even gun aficionados, know everything there is to know about guns?
GAMALOT
Member
Police academy and refresher courses center around the weapons & Ammo the department uses and the ability to safely handle and fire same.
Like a mechanic or carpenter, it is good to know the tools in your box.
Any one who expects, just because a cop has training in weapons, that he/she is some sort of expert is mistaken.
Some carpenters don't know much about routers and some mechanics are not up to speed on computers.
I think this all goes to something my dad taught me, If you don't know what you are talking about, best to NOT TALK.
TV cops all have guns with never ending magazine capacities or revolvers that shoot 12 rounds with out reloading, their guns shoot bullets even if the slide is in the lock back Empty mode and actors who took one in the chest can still speak.
Hollywood is far from reality and cops are human. Some are very proficient with weapons and others are completely unqualified and dangerous.
I seriously doubt Lenny Brisco (Law & Order) ever did any real shooting and alot of young mechanics don't have a clue what a timing light does or how to set the point gap.
Gary
Like a mechanic or carpenter, it is good to know the tools in your box.
Any one who expects, just because a cop has training in weapons, that he/she is some sort of expert is mistaken.
Some carpenters don't know much about routers and some mechanics are not up to speed on computers.
I think this all goes to something my dad taught me, If you don't know what you are talking about, best to NOT TALK.
TV cops all have guns with never ending magazine capacities or revolvers that shoot 12 rounds with out reloading, their guns shoot bullets even if the slide is in the lock back Empty mode and actors who took one in the chest can still speak.
Hollywood is far from reality and cops are human. Some are very proficient with weapons and others are completely unqualified and dangerous.
I seriously doubt Lenny Brisco (Law & Order) ever did any real shooting and alot of young mechanics don't have a clue what a timing light does or how to set the point gap.
Gary
i really think it is necessary to increase the exposure your average police officer has to different types of firearms. This will serve three purposes.
1-better able to understand the threat a person with a non-standard arm is. I've know cops who think the AR-15 the supervisor has in his trunk is WAY more powerful than a 'deer rifle' and i've known cops who viewed a guy with a black powder rifle to be the equivalent of a guy with a paintball gun because 'its some old muzzleloader! its old and wierd, it must suck!'
2-At least on the detective level, be better equipped to solve crimes. Take the 'DC sniper' stuff. They had a bullet of .223 diameter, and immediately jumped to the conclusion he was using an AR-15. What if a similar criminal is out shooting people with a .22-250, will cops look at it and just see a 'deer rifle' because it is a bolt action? and because the cartridge itself obviously is bigger than the 5.56's cartridge
3-Having better knowledge of the true capabilities, or lack their of, of weapons will allow the police officers to have more meaningful input when they are asked about what firearms the department should be investing in. Ive heard cops who say they would like an MP5 because of the 'firepower' even on semi-auto as a backup weapon, similar to how some departments have a subsection of the police force with AR-15s in their trunks. Good thing those guys aren't being listened to. Unfortunately, the chief can also be firearms ignorant.
Maybe we will have a situation where, when introduced to the concept of having carbines in their cars, and X dollars in the budget, rather than blowing all of the money on MP5s, the cops will just get some baragin rate 30-30 lever action rifles, and have a lot of money left over for more training, better radios, or some other needed equipment. They are able to make this point because the know the reality of how little the difference is between a 9mm from a handgun and from a subgun, and how little the difference is between a .30 projectile from a ak-47 and a 30-30 lever action
1-better able to understand the threat a person with a non-standard arm is. I've know cops who think the AR-15 the supervisor has in his trunk is WAY more powerful than a 'deer rifle' and i've known cops who viewed a guy with a black powder rifle to be the equivalent of a guy with a paintball gun because 'its some old muzzleloader! its old and wierd, it must suck!'
2-At least on the detective level, be better equipped to solve crimes. Take the 'DC sniper' stuff. They had a bullet of .223 diameter, and immediately jumped to the conclusion he was using an AR-15. What if a similar criminal is out shooting people with a .22-250, will cops look at it and just see a 'deer rifle' because it is a bolt action? and because the cartridge itself obviously is bigger than the 5.56's cartridge
3-Having better knowledge of the true capabilities, or lack their of, of weapons will allow the police officers to have more meaningful input when they are asked about what firearms the department should be investing in. Ive heard cops who say they would like an MP5 because of the 'firepower' even on semi-auto as a backup weapon, similar to how some departments have a subsection of the police force with AR-15s in their trunks. Good thing those guys aren't being listened to. Unfortunately, the chief can also be firearms ignorant.
Maybe we will have a situation where, when introduced to the concept of having carbines in their cars, and X dollars in the budget, rather than blowing all of the money on MP5s, the cops will just get some baragin rate 30-30 lever action rifles, and have a lot of money left over for more training, better radios, or some other needed equipment. They are able to make this point because the know the reality of how little the difference is between a 9mm from a handgun and from a subgun, and how little the difference is between a .30 projectile from a ak-47 and a 30-30 lever action
lostone1413
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- Jan 13, 2004
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- 447
After 150 rounds at a van awhile back I'd think the Ca LEO would be more interested in spending some time on the range then going after are 2nd amendment rights
Statements like "an AK-47 will shoot through a telephone pole" or "I shot a telephone pole with an SKS and the bullet was still visible are TOTALLY useless comments.
IF there were only a SINGLE loading of 7.62x39 ammunition on the market you could make a statement like that and impart some information. Given that there is a wide variety of loadings and bullet types commercially available, there needs to be some more specificity as to the load/bullet used before anyone can make any kind of use of this kind of anecdotal "evidence."
IF there were only a SINGLE loading of 7.62x39 ammunition on the market you could make a statement like that and impart some information. Given that there is a wide variety of loadings and bullet types commercially available, there needs to be some more specificity as to the load/bullet used before anyone can make any kind of use of this kind of anecdotal "evidence."
Steam dragon
Member
Loadstone:
Now why would you think that?
They are after all, the 'elite'. Just ask them, they'll tell you!
Now why would you think that?
They are after all, the 'elite'. Just ask them, they'll tell you!
A lot of cops are just full of B.S. after all how many people are full of B.S. where you work? There's a lot where I work. There just people like us. To me if your not sure about something IT'S BETTER TO KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT THAN TO OPEN IT AND REMOVE ALL DOUBT. Another thing about the cop shows what gets me is how many times do you hear them tell someone don't lie to me tell me what you have and you will not go to jail. Then the person says "I don't have anything" then the cops search the vehicle and find drugs or a gun or both. This is the good part the cop says "see you lied to me now you are going to jail if you would have told the truth you wouldn't be going to jail". YEH RIGHT like the cops are going to say "well even though I found some cocaine and a gun that you don't have a FOID card for since you told me the truth I'm letting you go have a nice evening. Why is this? I have some friends that are cops and no they don't like to be lied to. After all who does? But they don't lie to the people they pull over. Maybe it's a TV thing?
MachIVshooter
Member
I dunno, we've had pretty good luck getting both .308 and .30-06 FMJ to go through and through such cars as '78 Monte's and '74 Cutlass. 'Bout the only time the bullets were stopped is when they hit serious iron, such as engine, control arms, springs, etc. But as far as passenger cabins go, no problem. And the .30 cal bullets don't tend to deviate or tumble as .224" bullets will. As handguns are concerned, many will penetrate doors so long as they miss the window regualtor parts, etc. We did not play with shotguns much.
Automobile sheetmetal is not a good bullet stop; it is all the other components that are heavier/denser/ireregularly shaped that will cause bullet deflection or stoppage.
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