US vs. China

[Felonious Monk]

Lee Lapin said:

No need for them to fire a shot... or drop a bomb. We are burying ourselves in debt, selling our birthright for a cheap teevee set, hollowing out our industrial base, job market, economy, and society. The Chinese are waiting patiently, they are the world's past masters of patience.

Astute insight, my friend. Instant gratification has become our achilles' heel. Witness the success of the "Payday Advance" industry. Our father's generation called it loansharking. Now it's legal, and supposedly acceptable to charge 700% APR so you can 'get your bling bling on' without having to wait for payday. Most amazing of all, it's become a HUGE industry--are there really enough financially stupid people to support all of this?

Lord, help us.

 

[carebear]

It's been said before, the "yuan" is artificially pegged to the dollar, that can't last and only happens now due to the West's connivance. We decide to suck it up and stop trading with China and declare a military embargo on their shores? The other nations of the world will quickly pick up the slack in terms of buying and selling from us and China will slip back into the stone age in short order. We'll waste their Navy in short order, stand off offshore, kill their satellites and destroy their launch facilities and watch a billion man army wave their puny AK's and whine in unison.

Push come to shove, "global dislike" for the US is quickly going to be trumped by economic reality. The rest of the world can live without China, as can we with some short term pain, but China can't maintain it's economy without the West and their trading parties being friendly.

China gets uppity and capital will flee Hong Kong and Shanghai, shutting down China's only real economic security and draw. The first crushing of an anti-war or seperatist movement on top of aggression towards Taiwan and it's neighbors and world public opinion goes hard the other way.

History will see the fall of Communism repeat itself.

 

[TheDutchman]

I stand to be corrected but if i remember the loses in the Korea war where:

US 59,000
North Korea 300,000
China 1,000,000

 

[RevDisk]

It'd likely be more of an economic war than anything else. Throw in massive legal/illegal immigration... Shooting wars are a possibility, but not likely.


It'd be safer and cheaper for us to foster anti-communist groups in China and clamp down on illegal immigration. The Chinese have already bought off enough politicians that we won't do so.

 

[GW]

China cannot cross the Formosa straits
It that simple
They could bomb Taiwan into the stone age which makes invading it pointless, but they simply do not have the maritime capability to launch a contested amphibious invasion. It would end up like the Bismarck Sea in WWII
China is not yet a maritime power. They have ships, but have no real naval warfare experience and the US can project force antwhere it wants
We can have B-52's from the Marianas covering the straits in a few hours or less and we could have 3-5 carrier groups there within 2 weeks
The Chinese navy would become a new reef in the straits of Formosa

If I were China, I'd be looking north for my resources
Russia is in complete disarray and we would no be able to project force into Siberia like we could Taiwan

 

[faustulus]

Third Rail,

faustulus, something about freedom and eternal vigilance comes to mind....

So if I want to keep my freedom I have to assume everyone who is not like me is my enemy? That is a dead end path my friend.

 

[KLR]

One thing overlooked in this discussion is India. I think it was last month's issue of Proceedings, (the U.S. Naval Institute's magazine) that talked about the growth of India's military power. They are financing the latest generations of Russian Mig and Sukhoi fighters. They also have an aircraft carrier (not V/STOL carrier) on order from Russia. They are developing a formidable blue-water capability.

There was a recent Indian Air Force/USAF exercise where we got our clocks cleaned. Now, the USAF F-15Cs did not have AWACS support and were outnumbered 6 to 1, but AWACS can get shot down and we EXPECT the odds to be against us.

http://www.afa.org/magazine/Oct2004/1004train.asp

While India can also challenge us as a "Regional Hegemonic Power" and make life miserable for the USN in the Indian Ocean, they also serve as a counterweight to China. If I recall correctly, India and China went to war in 1962. I consider a conflict between those two and or a conflict between India and Pakistan more likely.

 

[model 649]

Meanwhile China and India are creating some kind of "strategic alliance" to deal with the rest of the world. Our only hope is to starve them out.
Josh

 

[cracked butt]

One huge deterrent and advantage in war we have is stealth technology. I don't think China is even remotely close to developing the capabilities we have. The US having the B2 bomber which takes off from a completely unreachable square state in the middle of the continent can hit any place in the world with precision munitions up to and including nukes and can get back home pretty much completely undetected. A conventional war against the US is simply unwinnable no matter who the players are.

Is there any reason or anything to gain by the US going to war with China? Most likely not. The only outstanding reason is over Taiwan, but the Chinese stand to lose a lot more than they can gain by ttempting to invade the island.

 

[MICHAEL T]

If we went to war with China Wal Mart would close up. As most of store is Made In China. They with the help of the world shopping at WM are pouring money into China and that will come back and bit us some day. Wal Mart is about the most unamerican company I can think of. Those that buy guns made in China are just as bad. Your supporting our enemy.

 

[50 Freak]

What the hell was that today on the news about India and China coming together and announcing they want to the new regional power?

Oh crap if India and China ever really got together, we'd get our arses kicked.

Good thing India and the US are pretty strong allies. After all, we hire a crap load of their techies and outsource plenty of our jobs over to them.

 

[Ol' Badger]

Bear in mind, too, that the use of weapons of mass destruction would be politically counter-productive for the USA. If we did so, we'd be portrayed to the world as monsters, bent on eliminating third-world opposition to our superpower status. Many nations and peoples would buy into this.

BFD smoke'em if you got'em!

 

[SamlautRanger]

Call me crazt, but here is a idea that crossed my mind. AS in the news today-India and China starting to form an alliance. with the continued growth of both countries they need oil. So together they march on the middle east. There are already more Indians working in Kuwait than there are Kuwaitis. Could this be the 1,000,000 man army coming from the East as told in the book of revelations????? Just a thought.

 

[duckslayer]

China will have a shortage of freshwater long before it has shortages of oil. The Yellow River doesn't even drain any water into the sea for 20% of the year, as it is too overtaxed for water. Taiwan won't help them there. The only thing for them to do is to march inland.

 

[Justin]

So long as China and the United States continue an economic relationship that is mutually beneficial, the chances of a war developing are slim to none.

Frederich Bastiat said it best

"When goods don't cross borders, armies will."

 

[cookiemonster]

What is being overlooked here is a simple lesson in Geographics...it would be easier for China to "annex" sections and parcels of russia...they have no military to speak of, other than a nuclear deterent that may or may not be used.

While this is a fact, also consider that we ARE making inroads with the old Warsaw Pact nations. The biggest, so far, is Ukraine. We also have on our side most of the old Eastern Communist nations as well. Kazhakstan, Uzbehkistan, Kurdistan.

And we have a whole nation of pissed off Aussies that might just want to help out a little, as well. As it stands, Japan cannot fight. We put that into their constitution. They are peaceful and wish to stay that way. However there was an article today talking about how Koizumi was somewhat upset at the anti-Japanese rhetoric being thrown around in mainland China about their jaded past...dealing with atrocities before and during WWII. Backed into a corner, Japan will come out fighting, but with a diffrent kind of combat. We are transfering from a nuclear society to an information age society. Back in WWII we had a love for Panacea Targets. (Hit that target, and the war is going to end day before tomorrow)...well, we now have the ability to actually FIND those types of targets, so to speak. Surviellance and intellegence gathering are alot better than most people realize. And if you believe our press saying just how inept our intellegence braches are...then um...well...yeah. The DIA and NSA are in the bussiness of keeping close watch on our enemy...the CIA and FBI are losing some favor, much how you would see the KGB and GRU fight for favor in the old Soviet Union.

Which brings me up to my last in the lists of allies...yes...Russia. They are closer to being our allies than most realize. May not like us being in their bussiness all the time...but you must remember that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"....Russia and China no longer march to the same drummer anymore....

What does all this mean in this Thread? It means that most of us are politically aware...that we are concerned with the safety and security of our homeland. But the one, trully important thing we can't do is look into the hearts and minds of the "other side"...they may come over here and ask for an ice-cream for all we know....or come out with guns blazing...never can tell.

And we must remember our history....we were wanting to use Germany, before WWII, as a buffer against, and even a way to get rid of, Russia and Stalin.

Darrell

 

[DigitalWarrior]

Reminds me of a joke I heard in the USMC

We decide to go to war with China. On the first day they draft every male and give him his orders. The second day we send a recon unit into China. 20 million Chinese soldiers surrender to it. On the third day 40 million Chinese soldiers surrender to an aerial drone. On the fourth day 80 million surrender.
On the fifth day they send one guy with a note that says "Are you ready to give up yet?".

China's current population:1,298,847,624

How much would it cost to keep 140 million POWs for a week? Could we even pull it off while complying with the laws of war?

 

[cls12vg30]

Scenario:
For obvious economic reasons, the Chinese never pick a fight with the US. Their continued economic growth at our expense causes the downfall of their Communist government, while continuing to erode the U.S. economy. As the economy worsens from the high standards Americans have become used to, and crime escalates, the weak-minded fools in this country continue to turn to the government to make it all better. Increasing socialist programs and skyrocketing taxes and regulations sap the economy and the individualism of Americans further, leading up to a firearm confiscation program, coordinated by the ever-more-powerful UN.

Finally, the remaining freedom-loving Americans mostly in the rural areas, begin armed revolution. Orders from Washington for the military to put down the insurrection result in mass desertions. Horrified by all the violence, weak-willed liberals flee to Canada and Mexico in droves. The ever-growing rebellion eventually takes control, seizes Washington, disbands the federal government, and begins a new one based on a letter-strict interpretation of the Constitution based on the intentions of the Founders.

With unfettered personal liberty, free of government interference, and without a bloated government sucking up 3/4 of the nation's wealth-producing capacity, it only takes a generation for the traditional American values of ingenuity and innovation lead to the nation regaining its position of economic leadership and standard of living in the world, just as those values did in the 19th and early 20th centuries.

Too much to hope for, I guess...

 

[jefnvk]

There would have to be a draft, whereupon 40% or more of the current male population would flee to Canada refusing to fight

I have my doubts that 40% would flee to Canada. Maybe 4%. I have met 1 person in my life in high school or college who would seriously go to Canada, and he would be no loss to the US.

 

[Frohickey]

What is it now? 1 Billion screaming china-men, vs 300million americans.

Remember, there are a lot of Indians that China-men. And the Americans are good at pitting regional enemies against each other too.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

The more important thing is that it will likely never happen. Once China sheds the vestigies of Communism, the flashpoint of Taiwan will fade as an issue and I would expect some kind of peaceful solution to the situation.

Amen. I quite agree.

 

[Sindawe]

Interesting point of view on the Taiwan-mainland China issue.

According to the results of a scientific poll conducted in late March by the Chinese Culture University on Taiwan, 65% of the university students on Taiwan would be unwilling to defend the island if the Chinese Communists were to attack; only 35% would be willing. Released on April 7, 2005, the poll surveyed 1161 students enrolled at National Taiwan University, National Chengchi University, and nine other major universities in northern Taiwan.

Source: http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig5/chu3.html

If this is indeed the case, I personally see no good reason for us (the U.S) to get in the middle of a spat between mainland China and the island of Taiwan. As Standing Wolf has observed...

I believe the Chinese people will simply outgrow and outnumber their communist masters, and kick them out of their way.

I recall a statement about the rulers of mainland China attributed to some folks in China after the Tianamen Square debacle in 1989. "You can out gun us. We will outlive you."

 

[Selfdfenz]

All mainland China needs to capture Taiwan is:
(a) a small fleet of ships, which they have built and......
(b) a sufficient number of subs, some they built and the rest they bought from Russia and.....
(c) a medium range missle capability to hold our carrier forces out of range at least on a temporary basis, which they now have too
(d) Hilly or her equal in the WH.....

That is the only war they are interesed in but unfortunately one that could very likely happen.

S-

 

[GW]

(d) Hilly or her equal in the WH.....

We can beat all of the military aspects of China trying to invade Taiwan, but not the last one
If that happens we need to worry about China invading US!

 

[Selfdfenz]

Bigchoad

hehehe

So true!

S-