Using slide release or pulling slide back
- Thread starter rcellis
- Start date
- Status
brewer90
Member
Regarding fine vs gross motor skills. The last I heard from a class attendee was that Gunsite and Front Sight both taught releasing the slide via pulling back vs the slide stop for the fine motor skill reason.
I googled the subject and found these three plus a whole lot of conjecture in forums which I didn't link to.
www.sigarmsacademy.com/pdf/Velocity-Harris-LHtrain.pdf page 2
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_143_23/ai_56221627
http://www.gunweek.com/2000/feature1210.html
I didn't see any concrete evidence or studies on loss of fine motor skills affecting ability to operate the slide stop but there is blurb in the gunweek link about a SWAT officer getting shot because he was fumbling with his slide release.
I googled the subject and found these three plus a whole lot of conjecture in forums which I didn't link to.
www.sigarmsacademy.com/pdf/Velocity-Harris-LHtrain.pdf page 2
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_143_23/ai_56221627
http://www.gunweek.com/2000/feature1210.html
I didn't see any concrete evidence or studies on loss of fine motor skills affecting ability to operate the slide stop but there is blurb in the gunweek link about a SWAT officer getting shot because he was fumbling with his slide release.
30-06 lover
Member
I use a USP and don't have to worry about it. Slide locked back, insert magazine with the right amount of force and the slide shuts on its own. I love the USP.
-Mike
-Mike
Walt Sherrill
Member
Just came back from an IDPA match tonight. One of the guys shooting with us is a long-time (one-time internationally ranked) IPSC shooter, IDPA Master, and a professional shooter. For the past two years he has been working with the US military as a firearms instructor. He's also spent a good deal of time training security personnel for a number of the larger US firms with operations in South America and Mexico.
I asked him about his thought on this matter.
He and his partners have been working with a wide range of US military shooters, ranging from the Special Ops people at Bragg to Marine Force Recon troops, to just average GIs who are going into combat. The experience levels varies from rank beginner to very, very good.
He says that all instructors he has been working with are training our folks to USE THE SLIDE RELEASE to send the slide forward after reload.
Why do this rather than the traditional SLING SHOT method?
Because they've found in combat, under stress and pressure, when the sling-shot method is used, about half the time the gun doesn't go into battery.
Keep in mind, too, that if you use your offhand, and use the tips of all four fingers, to grab and push the release, you've really changed what MIGHT have been a fine-motor skill technique into something that requires much less finesse.
I asked him about his thought on this matter.
He and his partners have been working with a wide range of US military shooters, ranging from the Special Ops people at Bragg to Marine Force Recon troops, to just average GIs who are going into combat. The experience levels varies from rank beginner to very, very good.
He says that all instructors he has been working with are training our folks to USE THE SLIDE RELEASE to send the slide forward after reload.
Why do this rather than the traditional SLING SHOT method?
Because they've found in combat, under stress and pressure, when the sling-shot method is used, about half the time the gun doesn't go into battery.
Keep in mind, too, that if you use your offhand, and use the tips of all four fingers, to grab and push the release, you've really changed what MIGHT have been a fine-motor skill technique into something that requires much less finesse.
Shawn Dodson
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
- Messages
- 3,195
Additional info to consider:
I always install and seat a fresh magazine with the slide in battery. The reason is to condition myself to make sure I use enough pressure to overcome the resistance of the magazine spring as the top cartridge presses against the bottom of the slide. Experience has shown that I cannot always count on my slide being locked open during a Combat Reload because my grip sometimes interferes with engagement of the slide lock on the last shot. Secondly, the slide will not be locked open after I clear a double-feed stoppage. Finally, I always administratively load my pistol with the slide in battery, and then roll & rack to chamber a round. Thus, any time I install and seat a magazine, I automatically roll the pistol to point the ejection port at the ground & energetically rack the slide, even when performing a Combat Reload. (Rolling the pistol allows both centrifugal force and gravity to clear the action in situations where a case/cartridge is jammed in such a manner that it doesn't strike the ejector when the slide is retracted.)
I rack the slide with vigor, using the overhand method, as though I'm trying to tear the slide off the frame. My support hand slides off when the slide does not retract any further. This precludes the tendency to ride the slide back into battery.
Battle-oriented manipulations differ from competition-oriented manipulations in that battle-oriented manipulations are meant to be positive actions that help ensure successful completion of the task under extremely stressful and difficult conditions. In many cases, competition-oriented manipulations can be performed faster but do not provide the same level of positive control that battle-oriented manipulations do.
I always install and seat a fresh magazine with the slide in battery. The reason is to condition myself to make sure I use enough pressure to overcome the resistance of the magazine spring as the top cartridge presses against the bottom of the slide. Experience has shown that I cannot always count on my slide being locked open during a Combat Reload because my grip sometimes interferes with engagement of the slide lock on the last shot. Secondly, the slide will not be locked open after I clear a double-feed stoppage. Finally, I always administratively load my pistol with the slide in battery, and then roll & rack to chamber a round. Thus, any time I install and seat a magazine, I automatically roll the pistol to point the ejection port at the ground & energetically rack the slide, even when performing a Combat Reload. (Rolling the pistol allows both centrifugal force and gravity to clear the action in situations where a case/cartridge is jammed in such a manner that it doesn't strike the ejector when the slide is retracted.)
I rack the slide with vigor, using the overhand method, as though I'm trying to tear the slide off the frame. My support hand slides off when the slide does not retract any further. This precludes the tendency to ride the slide back into battery.
Battle-oriented manipulations differ from competition-oriented manipulations in that battle-oriented manipulations are meant to be positive actions that help ensure successful completion of the task under extremely stressful and difficult conditions. In many cases, competition-oriented manipulations can be performed faster but do not provide the same level of positive control that battle-oriented manipulations do.
tsp45acp
Member
Until I worked for a local armed security co, I always used the slide release/stop. Had to qualify w/ a G23 (POS compared to even an average 1911 IMHO), can't find THAT slide release. After quitting that co and going back to my beloved 1911's, I returned to ALWAYS using the slide release. As the mag gets seated by the weak hand, the thumb naturally goes in the direction of the release. Hit the button and your back in the fight. Hand is already in the support position. Have shot in competition for approx. 7 yrs. and have always used the slide release when shooting from slide lock and fresh mag insertion. Its the way I taught myself and ingrained as my normal for training. I'd get myself shot using another type of firearm in a gunfight. I ONLY use and carry 1911's. Tracy
Nostratic
Member
One benefit of racking the slide is that it works no matter what autoloader you pick up. If you carry a Glock and pick up a Beretta (assuming more than two people in this hypothetical fight), you can just rack it and not have to locate the release.
That said, I started focusing on racking the slide during reloads a couple of weeks ago and it still seems pretty natural. Prior to that I was using the slide release exclusively.
That said, I started focusing on racking the slide during reloads a couple of weeks ago and it still seems pretty natural. Prior to that I was using the slide release exclusively.
ktd
Member
I say use whatever method you like, and if you need to replace parts, so be it, just keep an eye on it like everything else.
That being said, I have noticed that some 1911s will not drop the slide with the slingshot method, because the angle on the slide stop does not allow the detent pin to actually force it down out of lock, so you should always know your piece, or be ready to do something else if things do not work.
k
That being said, I have noticed that some 1911s will not drop the slide with the slingshot method, because the angle on the slide stop does not allow the detent pin to actually force it down out of lock, so you should always know your piece, or be ready to do something else if things do not work.
k
Walt Sherrill
Member
Shawn wrote:
What I noted above is that they're teaching the guys going into combat with handguns that racking the slide is, in fact, LESS safe in a combat situation.
The rigor and precision you cite in doing what you do may go out the window when you're running and ducking and trying to keep you head from being blown off. While competition is stressful, it certainly is not like getting shot at.
During the match I mentioned above, the guy was an instructor asked me why I was using cover the way I did -- he said I was concealing much more of my body than was required by IDPA standards. (He's a serious competitor and is always looking for an edge.) I said that I wanted to do it like I HOPED I would do in a real-world confrontation, and keep as much of me behind cover as I possibly could. I said I was chicken and didn't like the idea of being shot at.
He laughed and said, "yeah. It makes a difference when they're shooting at you." He mentioned having to visit the doctor with a rotator cuff problem during one of his training classes, his back and shoulders covered with WELTS from simunition hits.
When working with a group of Marines, they were doing a lot of force on force training with simunition. And while its SIMUNITION, it can be painful as hell. He said the doctor freaked out when she saw all of the bruises and damage from the simunition. He said, "don't worry about that -- that's trivial, my real problem is here, pointing to his shoulder." They try to make it as realistic as they can, without doing something stupid. So, in that environment he uses MORE cover rather than what the rules allow <grin>.
You seem to be saying that manually releasing/slingshotting the slide is safer in a combat environment.
What I noted above is that they're teaching the guys going into combat with handguns that racking the slide is, in fact, LESS safe in a combat situation.
The rigor and precision you cite in doing what you do may go out the window when you're running and ducking and trying to keep you head from being blown off. While competition is stressful, it certainly is not like getting shot at.
During the match I mentioned above, the guy was an instructor asked me why I was using cover the way I did -- he said I was concealing much more of my body than was required by IDPA standards. (He's a serious competitor and is always looking for an edge.) I said that I wanted to do it like I HOPED I would do in a real-world confrontation, and keep as much of me behind cover as I possibly could. I said I was chicken and didn't like the idea of being shot at.
He laughed and said, "yeah. It makes a difference when they're shooting at you." He mentioned having to visit the doctor with a rotator cuff problem during one of his training classes, his back and shoulders covered with WELTS from simunition hits.
When working with a group of Marines, they were doing a lot of force on force training with simunition. And while its SIMUNITION, it can be painful as hell. He said the doctor freaked out when she saw all of the bruises and damage from the simunition. He said, "don't worry about that -- that's trivial, my real problem is here, pointing to his shoulder." They try to make it as realistic as they can, without doing something stupid. So, in that environment he uses MORE cover rather than what the rules allow <grin>.
Last edited:
AirForceShooter
Member
Pain is a wonderful teacher.
AFS
AFS
thewheelsonthebus
Member
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2006
- Messages
- 32
first off self protection, you have 10 rounds you souldn't need another mag.
second range, push, pull, or flip the switch just make sure it puts lead down range where it's suposed to go. safety then comfort. big muscle, little muscle what gets you through the dance is the one you take home.
second range, push, pull, or flip the switch just make sure it puts lead down range where it's suposed to go. safety then comfort. big muscle, little muscle what gets you through the dance is the one you take home.
evan price
Member
If you properly maintain and lube your gun, using hte slide release won't harm your gun unless you cycle it a million times. Then it may just need a little polishing. Personal preference.
Graystar
Member
I have an old Glock 17 where the previous owner used to use the slide release. Now, all I have to do is slam the mag home and the slide releases itself! 
birddog
Member
I use the slide-lock/release. Everyone here has made good points on both sides. For me, it's just natural. An economy-of-motion kind of thing. I'm dropping the slide as I'm getting the gun back up on target. It feels more smooth to me than racking the slide.
carnaby
Member
Well, if you want to drop the slide on an empty mag, even with pulling back the slide, you need to be able to release the slide lock.
carnaby
Member
Oh yeah, and no matter your technique with your own piece, you really ought to carefully drop the slide on other folks' guns. I also think this is good gun store etiquette, to pull the slide back and NOT slingshot the slide, but guide it back into position. Nothing makes the guys behind the counter grumpier than the perception that you're being mean to their weapons (wether or not that's really the case).
There is one element that I'm surprised no one has touched upon yet: using 2 hands vs. just 1 hand. I don't like the idea of relying on 2 hands to do anything in a gunfight. By using the slide stop/release on my autoloaders, I can drop the slide with either hand.
I figure in a defensive situation, more likely that not you'll have only 1 hand available to you. The other might be needed to fend off an attacker or could have sustained damage in the fight. When I train, I make sure to do plenty of 1-handed shooting (both right AND left handed!), including practicing 1-handed reloads, drawing from concealment with the non-dominant hand, etc.
I used to be a dyed-in-the-wool revolver guy. If I had a choice between a 686 loaded with 6 rounds of 125gr JHP or an autoloader, I would have taken the wheelgun without hesitation. They're more comfortable for me, more accurate in my hands, dead reliable, and pack a serious wallop. The main reason why I switched to autoloaders (particularly, a CZ-97B and a Springfield 1911) for defensive use is the extreme difficulty of reloading a revolver with only 1 hand.
I figure in a defensive situation, more likely that not you'll have only 1 hand available to you. The other might be needed to fend off an attacker or could have sustained damage in the fight. When I train, I make sure to do plenty of 1-handed shooting (both right AND left handed!), including practicing 1-handed reloads, drawing from concealment with the non-dominant hand, etc.
I used to be a dyed-in-the-wool revolver guy. If I had a choice between a 686 loaded with 6 rounds of 125gr JHP or an autoloader, I would have taken the wheelgun without hesitation. They're more comfortable for me, more accurate in my hands, dead reliable, and pack a serious wallop. The main reason why I switched to autoloaders (particularly, a CZ-97B and a Springfield 1911) for defensive use is the extreme difficulty of reloading a revolver with only 1 hand.
hell I'm so new to semis I didn't even know you could release the slide by pulling it back once it was locked .. however I use the slide release with my right thumb because it just feels cool to push that little button and feel the beast slam shut one handed.
.. however I use the slide release with my right thumb because it just feels cool to push that little button and feel the beast slam shut one handed. I do neither...
With my CZ 75 BD, I just insert the mag forcefully with a knock from the heel of my hand as I'm putting it in, and the slide releases itself forward just like with a USP. Problem solved. I love that feature in a pistol (USP, CZ 75BD, etc.).
But I could see the argument for "slingshotting" the slide since it's a more universal maneuvre, rather than fumbling with the short or non-existent slide releases on some guns.
With my CZ 75 BD, I just insert the mag forcefully with a knock from the heel of my hand as I'm putting it in, and the slide releases itself forward just like with a USP. Problem solved.
I love that feature in a pistol (USP, CZ 75BD, etc.). But I could see the argument for "slingshotting" the slide since it's a more universal maneuvre, rather than fumbling with the short or non-existent slide releases on some guns.
- Status
Similar threads
