VIDEO: guy shoots himself in leg with 1911 drawing from serpa holster

[KodiakBeer]

the root of this ND was in mixing up his holster systems.

Actually, the root of the problem was having a "holster system". Leave the plastic holsters with the quick release buttons and other gadgets to the mall ninjas.

 

[ants]

He said that the weapon hesitated to release from the holster and he pushed harder with his finger and pulled a bit harder so it would come out.

The video does not support his claim. The draw is smooth, the gun didn't hesitate. He pulled the gun several inches clear of the holster, then pulled the trigger way too early. Listen carefully to the audio, you can even hear the safety being clicked OFF as he smoothly pulls the gun upward 6 inches to clear the 5" barrel from the holster. Then he pulled the trigger.

I laughed at that one comment someone left on YouTube:
"That's when my training kicked in, I called my mom..."

 

[CathyGo]

Funny how many people want to bash Serpa holsters as "plastic gadgets". Just because it's not a traditional design or material doesn't mean that it's crap. There are certain situations where it does a much better job than other holsters would do. I love mine and have had zero problems with it. Getting in and out of the vehicle and turret your gun winds up at some pretty crazy angles but the serpa never lets go. I can also draw down on some idiot too close to the truck and just drop it back into the holster to get my hands back on the turret control and .50 cal. Instant retention every time. It's also a nice straight draw. Not a lot of room in the turret so that's a nice feature.

I've never found my finger on the trigger just from drawing before. Operator error NOT holster design problems.

 

[Chris Rhines]

Actually, the root of the problem was having a "holster system". Leave the plastic holsters with the quick release buttons and other gadgets to the mall ninjas.

Seriously? You don't see any way that a rigid holster with an automatic retention system could possibly be an improvement over dead cow?

Funny how many people want to bash Serpa holsters as "plastic gadgets". Just because it's not a traditional design or material doesn't mean that it's crap.

This is a cop-out. The SERPA is crap, not because it's plastic (I own plastic holsters exclusively), nor because it has a retention lock (I use a retention holster for some 3-gun matches.) The SERPA is crap because the design of the lock almost guarantees an ND if you maintain pressure on the release button through the drawstroke.

I've seen three or four similar videos of NDs while using SERPA holsters. Operator error all, but the holster design was a major contributing factor in each one.

-C

 

[nofishbob]

Chris Rhines:

The SERPA is crap because the design of the lock almost guarantees an ND if you maintain pressure on the release button through the drawstroke.

I have less experience than you do, but this statement. IMHO, is not true in all cases.

I have practiced with a SERPA and Glock 21 over and over. My index finger does not ever end up on the trigger! One has to move their finger down towards the trigger after pushing the release button, at least on my Glock/SERPA combination.

If I press the button while drawing the gun, my finger ends up on the side of the frame, almost on the slide, every time.

High stress situations, training on different holsters, different gun dimensions, hand size and more could change the relationship between hand, holster, and gun.

Further, how do you pull a trigger with a straight finger? Even if the release button was right over the trigger, a straight finger would never cause an ND.

Again, in my opinion, a ND with a SERPA requires BOTH moving your finger down towards the trigger after releasing the latch, and curling your trigger finger during the draw.

Bob

 

[Jonah71]

I use the blackhawk serpa holster for both the G23 and G26 and it's very hard for me to understand how this sort of thing could happen. I'd use one for my old Kimber BP Pro if I could find one. I also have Tagua molded leather holsters for most of my guns and I like them too. I think they produce less wear on the guns and work just fine. It all depends on where I'm going and what I'm wearing.

 

[FoMoGo]

What exactly is a hyena dirt shooter?


Jim

 

[tipoc]

What exactly is a hyena dirt shooter?

Good question.

Anyways I believe that all the information we need to know is provided by Tex in his video. Not on the dirt shooter stuff but on the problems he had that day.

First he explains that he was practicing his draw earlier that day with a completely different gun in a completely different holster. Earlier he was drawing a Glock from a 5-11 thumb drive rig. Here is a link to those holsters so a fella can compare the two types of rigs.

http://www.lapolicegear.com/5tareho.html

The 5-11 requires that the thumb of the gun hand move alongside the left side of the slide to deactivate the retention device.

Tex explains that he transitioned to the 1911 in the Sherpa rig to continue practicing.

At this point you can see the possibilities for trouble increasing quite a bit. Different holsters with different retention systems and completely different guns with quite different modes of operation going back to back in drills where muscle memory is required for smoothness and the fella is working on his speed. We can add here the video camera rolling and his desire to look competent in front of it.

Tex says that he went to disengage the retention from the Sherpa by using his strong hand thumb the way he had been doing it for the 5-11. This caused him to disengage the safety of the 1911 while the gun was still in the rig, not a good thing. He tried to pull the gun up from the holster but it resisted and he recovered rapidly (you can't see an obvious double tug on the gun but a smooth draw did become a jerk) and used his trigger finger to disengage the retention device of the Sherpa as it should be. His trigger finger does not immediately hit the trigger as the gun clears but a small fraction of a second later, which is common.

His rhythm was thrown off. For a split second his hand, and so his brain, did not know which holster he had on or which gun was in his hand. His finger hit the trigger and bang.

A layer of things.

tipoc

 

[GLOOB]

I have practiced with a SERPA and Glock 21 over and over. My index finger does not ever end up on the trigger! One has to move their finger down towards the trigger after pushing the release button, at least on my Glock/SERPA combination.

+1. Where the button is located is the same place on the slide where I rest my trigger finger. Push button. Draw. Finger goes to side of slide. This is something that I'd hope anyone with half a brain would have verified for themselves before using the holster. If the button were located over the trigger guard, the company would be bankrupt, already.

But accidents do happen. This is why strong side holsters are the safest at a gun range. At least he didn't shoot someone else.

 

[Cosmoline]

It fired when his finger went on the trigger. Period. All guns fire if you pull the trigger.

Pull being the operative word. There's a big difference between my Ruger's trigger and a 1911 with a hair trigger. At a point there is such a thing as too light a trigger for CCW. You reach that point when merely brushing or nudging the trigger (with your finger or anything else) is enough to set it off. Your CCW trigger should be heavy enough so that you have to intentionally squeeze it to fire it.

That way, you have some margin of error if things go wrong on a draw, as they did here. With a heavier trigger, his premature contact with the trigger would not have set the firearm off.

It's also worth noting that he was trying a very close drill, from an unusual position. This is the sort of thing you're likely to run into in a real SD situation, and such a situation will increase the chances that something is going to brush your trigger. If anything, his drill demonstrated that this weapon's trigger is too light for close melee.

Think about it for a moment. If some thug is at point blank, maybe stabbing you or shooting you, and you draw what do you think the chances are that your trigger finger discipline will remain 100% intact as you draw? Don't you think there's a chance your finger is going to get in that guard just a tad early? If you have a heavy enough trigger, that won't be a fatal error for you. Otherwise, exactly what happened here will happen to you.

Conversely, what benefit do you think you'd actually be getting from that light a trigger in a real self defense scenario?

Me, I'm sticking with double actions or at least da/sa's with a good stiff pull. This whole incident reinforces my belief that the C&L 1911 hair trigger crowd are living too close to the edge.

 

[Walkalong]

Your CCW trigger should be heavy enough so that you have to intentionally squeeze it to fire it.

That way, you have some margin of error if things go wrong on a draw, as they did here.

Exactly. 4.0# minimum, and 4.5# is better. Adrenaline is a bear. Light target triggers have no business on a defensive firearm.

The original 1911 hammer had some positive angle on the sear engagement for added safety. (Even more so on a CZ 75) Can't say the same for some trigger jobs.

There are play triggers, and serious triggers.

 

[SleazyRider]

How's this for an inherently dangerous design? It's a Spanish Ruby .32, and to release the pistol from the holster, one must depress the metal tab within the triggerguard!

 

[BADUNAME37]

You really have to hand it to this guy for being so up-front and honest, willing to show many people what he did wrong, he is right, if it helps just one person, it was worth it!

It takes a man to admit he made a mistake!

Thank you for being willing to show this to help others!

 

[BADUNAME37]

How's this for an inherently dangerous design? It's a Spanish Ruby .32, and to release the pistol from the holster, one must depress the metal tab within the triggerguard!

A.K.A. - "suicide-gun with holster or suicide-holster with gun?"

 

[Searcher4851]

I think Tex explained the situation well, and was willing to hold himself up for ridicule in an effort to inform us all that no matter how good you think you are, you still have to think safety. He accepted total responsibility for the incident. That's my idea of a stand-up guy, even if he DOES lean a little for a while. (sorry, I couldn't resist)

Thanks for your post, Tex, and I wish you a speedy and complete recovery.

 

[BADUNAME37]

Exactly. 4.0# minimum, and 4.5# is better. Adrenaline is a bear. Light target triggers have no business on a defensive firearm.

The original 1911 hammer had some positive angle on the sear engagement for added safety. (Even more so on a CZ 75) Can't say the same for some trigger jobs.

There are play triggers, and serious triggers.

I was recently pondering helping a family member decide how to lighten the trigger pull on a 1911. The OEM trigger feels like it will take forever to go off and you feel as though you are pulling harder and harder, before it will fire!

After looking at this video and posts, I told him we will leave the factory trigger in it and just get used to the heavy trigger pull, as that is part of the "safety".

 

[Big Mike]

I'm reminded of my dad's words when he told me it was amazing, how many guns never go off when your finger is never on the trigger.

 

[tipoc]

Interesting, Tex says nothing about a "hair trigger" on his Kimber Pro-Carry 1911. He does not say that the gun has a light pull weight because it is a target gun. He does say that it is a carry gun. He does not say what the trigger pull weight is. So those posters who have warned against the dangers of "hair triggers" and gunsmithed lightened triggers seem not to be speaking to this incident.

The type of gun or the trigger pull weight were not the issues in this case. The operator made the wrong choices.

tipoc

 

[Cosmoline]

True, but from the video freeze-frames I looked at he just nudged that trigger and it went BANG. To me it looked like a very light trigger. I didn't see his hand grip the pistol with his finger in the guard, squeezing.

But I may be wrong--I just get suspicious since this is a 1911 we're dealing with and they can have some very very light SA trigger pulls. I've posted asking him the question so we'll see.

The operator made the wrong choices.

Trigger weight is also a choice.

 

[FruitCake]

Operator error that's all, accidental discharges happen. I call it accidental because in most cases it was accident. Negligent maybe, but for those who call it negligent how about someone that's gets into a car accident and gets injuredits an accident and that's it. If you keep your buger car at home maybe you wouldn't get into a negligent car accicent. Instead of talking stuff, we can learn from this just as I did myself. I know of 2 local police officers that its happened too. It happens just that one time and second. We are not perfect. Wether its a car accident or cutting your hand on something.

 

[tipoc]

True, but from the video freeze-frames I looked at he just nudged that trigger and it went BANG. To me it looked like a very light trigger. I didn't see his hand grip the pistol with his finger in the guard, squeezing

If you go back to the video, the section in slo-mo, and play that back a few times you clearly see his finger slip from the holster as the gun clears into the face of the trigger, inside the guard as he grips and the gun fires. Remember, he had disengaged the safety while the gun was in the rig because he forgot what holster he had on and thought it was the 5-11. He tried to quickly recover from that by hitting the release on the Serpa and then forcably jerking the gun free. In the course of that he hit the face of the trigger on the cocked and unlocked 1911. It would likely have made no difference whether the trigger was 4pds. or 8pds. He had set himself up for an accident.

I agree with Tex. He traces the origin of the incident to his practicing quick defensive draws with two separate type guns with completely different modes of operating in two completely different holsters with different types of retention systems one right after the other. He confused himself.

Would it have happened if he had been carrying a revolver? Or a da/sa sidearm like the M92? Or a different rig? I don't know and neither does anyone else. I do know that the gun has not been made that a fella can't manage to shoot themselves in the behind with. I do agree with Tex in his evaluation of why it happened this time. It was not the guns or the triggers or the holsters, it was his decisions that made it easier for him to make an error like the one he did.

tipoc

 

[Walkalong]

You are supposed to pull the gun from the holster by its handle, without your finger on the trigger. He failed to do this. The finger should not go in the trigger guard until the gun is moving forward with the muzzle away from you.

Anyone could have done this. Just get in a little bit of a hurry, just a little careless, just a little sidetracked, and bang.

 

[opto_isolator]

I hear about this often. How many other holsters have this problem? I would never own one of these specifically for this reason.

 

[johniac7078]

anyone think this may be a fake? why no swelling? no wound drainage? no limp? exit wound = to entrance wound? then the guys does a video about spear throwing the next day? No shock wave injury...just 2 clean holes? no humility?

grebner is no angel on YT and is a known troll, and part of a so called "hyena pack" that likes to harass people on YT. could be wrong, but something dont smell right.

 

[SleazyRider]

anyone think this may be a fake? why no swelling? no wound drainage? no limp? exit wound = to entrance wound? then the guys does a video about spear throwing the next day? No shock wave injury...just 2 clean holes? no humility?

grebner is no angel on YT and is a known troll, and part of a so called "hyena pack" that likes to harass people on YT. could be wrong, but something dont smell right.

If your theory is correct, then he's one heck of a fine actor, you've got to give him that. Good special effects, too.