Wadcutters for Defense?
- Thread starter fxstchewy
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It's a good thing I don't have a place to do this sort of thing or I'd never leave the range...
I'd *love* to see a tool like Paco Kelly's Accurizer (sp) for cast bullets. Just a die that will press a bit of an HP or an X into loose cast bullets (before loading) for a given caliber. It could even be a hand-tool, like Paco's rather than something fancy to go in a press. Hmmm....
-Daizee
jmortimer
Member
"Chicago" Federal 158 Grain LSWCHP .38 pecial +P hits 76% One Shot Stops (OSS) out of a 4" barrel out of 401 actual shootings 305 OSS - Penetrtation 12.9" and .63 expansion. Winchester does just as well. Out of a 2" revolver same load is good for 67% OSS 97 out of 145 shootings with 11.2" penetration and .52 expansion with Winchester doing the same. Pretty decent numbers for an "Old School" load.
there's a wadcutter at appx 1:02 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBDzKfKX_yw
Perps in the old days were more wimps than we have today.
Seriously, get someone loaded up on PCP and what worked 50 years ago might not work today?
As for your gf, in a real self defense situation, she probably wouldn't even notice that there was recoil. Just don't tell her. Seriously, when I've shot a 300 gr hot load at a deer, I never noticed the recoil, nor did I notice the noise even though I didn't have earplugs. (Yes, I got the deer.)
Hmmm....you've made me start thinking here. In the old days when police carried 38 special revolvers, the average number of rounds fired was 2-3. Nowadays with more powerful handguns, NYPD only averages one hit on target per 15 rounds fired. Maybe...just maybe....the old 38 specials were able to put more rounds on target. Those 14 rounds of 40SW or 9mm +P that miss the target don't do a whole lot of good.
Ken
wnycollector
Member
When my wife started shooting, she carried mastercasts 148gr total copper jacket DEWC in her M638. Back then I didnt have a chrono, but mastercast lists its velocity at 825fps, which is hotter than most factory WC's.
I have a small pistol safe in a bookcase on the 1st floor of my house. Inside of it, is an H&R 732 loaded with fiocchi 100gr WC's. I'm sure if push came to shove those wadcutters would make nice little .312 holes in a BG.
I have a small pistol safe in a bookcase on the 1st floor of my house. Inside of it, is an H&R 732 loaded with fiocchi 100gr WC's. I'm sure if push came to shove those wadcutters would make nice little .312 holes in a BG.
RioShooter
Member
My everyday carry gun is a Model 36. I loaded with a variety of cartridges over the years. After reading Cirillo's books I switched permanently to wadcutters.
I now use Buffalo Bore Standard Pressure Short Barrel Low Flash Heavy .38 Special Pistol and Handgun Ammo.
See product description from BB website below:
Item 20D utilizes a very hard cast 150gr. WAD CUTTER bullet. The bullet is made hard, so it won't deform or mushroom. It cuts/crushes a "cookie cutter", full diameter hole in human flesh just like it does on a paper target. It penetrates deeply (roughly 14 to 16 inches in human tissue) and its full diameter profile maximizes blood loss as it cuts and crushes (not slips or slides) its way through tissue. Although I've never been shot with a full profile wad cutter bullet, I must assume that the initial impact of that wide flat nosed bullet, is crushingly formidable. As a teenager, I took to the woods on a regular basis and killed many a critter with heavily loaded 38SPL wad cutters'. The effect of a full profile wad cutter on small game was obvious and amazing, compared to regular round nosed bullets. That flat nose, literally hammers living things. These bullets are hard and properly lubed and will NOT lead your barrel. Note my velocities from real world "over the counter" revolver s- NOT TEST BARRELS!
a. S&W mod. 60, 2 inch barrel - 868 fps (251 ft. lbs.)
b. S&W mod. 66, 2.5 inch barrel - 890 fps (264 ft. lbs.)
c. Ruger SP101, 3 inch barrel - 961 fps (308 ft. lbs.)
d. S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch barrel - 1005 fps (336 ft. lbs.)
I now use Buffalo Bore Standard Pressure Short Barrel Low Flash Heavy .38 Special Pistol and Handgun Ammo.
See product description from BB website below:
Item 20D utilizes a very hard cast 150gr. WAD CUTTER bullet. The bullet is made hard, so it won't deform or mushroom. It cuts/crushes a "cookie cutter", full diameter hole in human flesh just like it does on a paper target. It penetrates deeply (roughly 14 to 16 inches in human tissue) and its full diameter profile maximizes blood loss as it cuts and crushes (not slips or slides) its way through tissue. Although I've never been shot with a full profile wad cutter bullet, I must assume that the initial impact of that wide flat nosed bullet, is crushingly formidable. As a teenager, I took to the woods on a regular basis and killed many a critter with heavily loaded 38SPL wad cutters'. The effect of a full profile wad cutter on small game was obvious and amazing, compared to regular round nosed bullets. That flat nose, literally hammers living things. These bullets are hard and properly lubed and will NOT lead your barrel. Note my velocities from real world "over the counter" revolver s- NOT TEST BARRELS!
a. S&W mod. 60, 2 inch barrel - 868 fps (251 ft. lbs.)
b. S&W mod. 66, 2.5 inch barrel - 890 fps (264 ft. lbs.)
c. Ruger SP101, 3 inch barrel - 961 fps (308 ft. lbs.)
d. S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch barrel - 1005 fps (336 ft. lbs.)
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johnnylaw53
Member
bullets may not perform how they are designed to. While I'm a firm beliver that anything is better then nothing and have carried .22 lr, .25's and .32. I will not carried wad cutters in my snub. If I needed a lighter round i would go with hardball. The wad cutters don't have the penatraction that is needed. In a world far far away many years ago two narcs were doing what is called a reverse buy they were selling a kilo of coke. Bad guy get in the front seat. One narc in driver seat other in back seat. Deal goes south bd pull weapon front seat narc grab bg gun hand yell for back seat narc for help. Back seat narc pull Mod. 37 (loaded with wadcutters) fire two shots bad guy drop weapon exit car and run. Back up narc (too young at time to know better chase after him) grab bad guy think he had just shot other narc or narcs fine out bg had two bullets in him from back seat narc. Rode in ambulance with bg seen doctor removed two very swallow slugs from bg. Moral, wad cutters good for punching holes in paper not so much for punching holes in bad guys.
be safe
be safe
OldMac
Member
"In a world far far away many years ago"
How far away and long ago did this happen? Reading this story reminds me of the SNL skit of Tarzan, Frankenstien, and a cave man for some reason. Point taken. Bullet research and technology has created many tools to accomplish differing tasks. I love wadcutters when target shooting because they make me look very good. I feel better with Golden Saber or Hydroshocks in my pocket for stopping a life threatening BG. The nasty shape and cutting edges of these HPs makes me believe the tissue damage and blood loss would be more significant and end the threat faster even if my groups are not as tight as the WCs.
How far away and long ago did this happen? Reading this story reminds me of the SNL skit of Tarzan, Frankenstien, and a cave man for some reason. Point taken. Bullet research and technology has created many tools to accomplish differing tasks. I love wadcutters when target shooting because they make me look very good. I feel better with Golden Saber or Hydroshocks in my pocket for stopping a life threatening BG. The nasty shape and cutting edges of these HPs makes me believe the tissue damage and blood loss would be more significant and end the threat faster even if my groups are not as tight as the WCs.
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zxcvbob
Member
Hmmm....you've made me start thinking here. In the old days when police carried 38 special revolvers, the average number of rounds fired was 2-3. Nowadays with more powerful handguns, NYPD only averages one hit on target per 15 rounds fired. Maybe...just maybe....the old 38 specials were able to put more rounds on target. Those 14 rounds of 40SW or 9mm +P that miss the target don't do a whole lot of good.
Maybe...but that seems like an awfully large discrepancy to attribute to those calibers--we're not talking about .500 S&W Magnum, here. Perhaps the parameters of typical engagements have changed and/or LEOs today are far more likely to fire more rounds without aiming each of them quite as carefully because they have more rounds available.
Perhaps the young narc used lightly-loaded wadcutters intended specifically for target shooting. There are, of course, more powerful semi-wadcutter rounds available that seem to penetrate about as well as ball rounds.
There are really two issues:
1. What are the advantages and disadvantages of a full-wadcutter bullet?
2. What are the advantages and disadvantages of the wadcutter cartridge that's loaded to middle-range velocities and intended to be used for target shooting?
I have used wadcutter bullets loaded to various velocities for years, and trust them over many of the newer "super slugs." What does the damage is the primary channel made by the bullet, not the temporary one that impresses so many people in jelly tests. Energy numbers are also meaningless. Penetration of a wadcutter bullet (as well as other non-hollow points) is dependent on the powder charge pushing it. If for example, I thought I might have to shoot through a car seat to reach my intended target I'd use a bullet/powder charge combination that could accomplish it. Inside an apartment where deep penetration through a wall might not be a good idea I might use the same bullet, but at a lower velocity.
There is plenty of evidence that "super slugs" are not especially good at stopping goblins unless, like any other bullet, they hit a vital organ. Bullet placement, now as always, is the key to success.
1. What are the advantages and disadvantages of a full-wadcutter bullet?
2. What are the advantages and disadvantages of the wadcutter cartridge that's loaded to middle-range velocities and intended to be used for target shooting?
I have used wadcutter bullets loaded to various velocities for years, and trust them over many of the newer "super slugs." What does the damage is the primary channel made by the bullet, not the temporary one that impresses so many people in jelly tests. Energy numbers are also meaningless. Penetration of a wadcutter bullet (as well as other non-hollow points) is dependent on the powder charge pushing it. If for example, I thought I might have to shoot through a car seat to reach my intended target I'd use a bullet/powder charge combination that could accomplish it. Inside an apartment where deep penetration through a wall might not be a good idea I might use the same bullet, but at a lower velocity.
There is plenty of evidence that "super slugs" are not especially good at stopping goblins unless, like any other bullet, they hit a vital organ. Bullet placement, now as always, is the key to success.
I think the question resolves on the Alloy, and or if Pure Lead, of the Wadcutter...it's speed, 'FPS', and shape - if a Semi-Wad, or, Full-Flat Wadcutter, and, it's weight.
Usual, traditional, Target rounds, of lightly loaded 148 grain Bullets, are not going to perform as well as a full house Load and a heavier Bullet.
Pure Lead will deform on impact more than a harder alloy.
850, 900, 950 FPS will deform/perfom better than 600-odd FPS.
A 160 Grain or heavier Bullet, will penetrate/penetrate/perfom better than a 148 Grain, if having the same FPS.
Etc...
Wadcutters for SD, shoud be made/assembled intentionally, and not be confused with a complaisent use of light-load, light Bullet versions, traditionally used in Paper Target Shooting.
Usual, traditional, Target rounds, of lightly loaded 148 grain Bullets, are not going to perform as well as a full house Load and a heavier Bullet.
Pure Lead will deform on impact more than a harder alloy.
850, 900, 950 FPS will deform/perfom better than 600-odd FPS.
A 160 Grain or heavier Bullet, will penetrate/penetrate/perfom better than a 148 Grain, if having the same FPS.
Etc...
Wadcutters for SD, shoud be made/assembled intentionally, and not be confused with a complaisent use of light-load, light Bullet versions, traditionally used in Paper Target Shooting.
woad_yurt
Member
148 grain hollowbased wadcutters and 4 grains of HP-38/Win231 will do you. Wadcutters are the ticket when they're loaded with some oomph.
Confederate
Member
There's more to stopping power than just expansion. The energy of any wadcutter round, reversed or not, will probably be transferred to the body of the person shot. Unfortunately, the energy levels are lacking in both. For reversed wadcutters, you're going to have keyholing and accuracy problems. You're also not going to be able to break bones or plow through sinew. It may well do the job, but I wouldn't be comfortable using wadcutters. Even the wadcutters with the post in the middle (old Hydrashoks) were found to be lacking in stopping power. Even though they mushroomed nicely, the energy transfer just wasn't enough to reliable enough put someone down.
The "energy" of a given cartridge effects penetration and expansion but has little to do with stopping an assailant. Crushing tissue, closely related to blood loss, is what stops unless the central nervous system is hit. That is the only nearly positive one shot stop and it has nothing to do with energy. Sorry!
Dave
Dave
Dirty Bob
Member
I load Lee tumble-lube wadcutters as a snubby practice load. My load looks a lot like the BB rounds, with a bit of wadcutter sticking out of the case. This is not a "poof" load: when I tested with the "board of truth," it completely penetrated four 1-gallon jugs and stopped in the fifth. The bullet looked like it could almost be loaded and shot again (picture below).
Recently, when I couldn't get any .38 ammo anywhere, the wadcutters temporarily became a carry load. I didn't feel inadequately prepared.
All my best,
Dirty Bob
Recently, when I couldn't get any .38 ammo anywhere, the wadcutters temporarily became a carry load. I didn't feel inadequately prepared.
All my best,
Dirty Bob
AStone
Member
Subscribing.
Very interesting thread.
Very interesting thread.
jmortimer
Member
Figuring a penetration factor of approximately 5 you are at 20 plus inches of penetration. Here is interesting link RE: Water Testing http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs12.htm I spent some extra $$$ and got my with the Federal 110 grain .38 Premium ammunition for her 2" J Frame and now that I have seen these test results I may be switching to the Hard Cast Wad Cutters or SWC. Will shoot into some H20 and see if the ammunition has improved in the last 12 years. I subsequently read tactical brief 3 and they state that plastic bottles should not be used for their results but other info I read seems to indicate that you get a ratio of approximately 1.25 to .150 inches of penetration in h2o bottles to 1 inch of ballistic gelatin.
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johnnylaw53
Member
Water-Man
Member
Join Date: March 22, 2008
Posts: 549 johnnylaw53...That's a real heartwarming story but I suggest you do some research about what's available TODAY in wadcutters before slamming them. Read post #26 as an example.
yes I know there are a lot of other of TODAY wadcutters out there but one can do all the research one want spend all day on the computer but all that research may or not pay off when you put it to the test in a real life situration since the only way I would be able to change my mind would be to put TODAY wadcutter to the same real life test. and if you don't mind I will pass on that. Don't get me wrong I have shot a lot of wadcutters they great when looking at the holes you made in a target. Now if I was leaving the house and notice all i could take with me was my snub loaded with wadcutters I would not leave the house not being armed just because the only ammo I had was wadcutters but given the choice they would not be in the weapon.
be safe
Member
Join Date: March 22, 2008
Posts: 549 johnnylaw53...That's a real heartwarming story but I suggest you do some research about what's available TODAY in wadcutters before slamming them. Read post #26 as an example.
yes I know there are a lot of other of TODAY wadcutters out there but one can do all the research one want spend all day on the computer but all that research may or not pay off when you put it to the test in a real life situration since the only way I would be able to change my mind would be to put TODAY wadcutter to the same real life test. and if you don't mind I will pass on that. Don't get me wrong I have shot a lot of wadcutters they great when looking at the holes you made in a target. Now if I was leaving the house and notice all i could take with me was my snub loaded with wadcutters I would not leave the house not being armed just because the only ammo I had was wadcutters but given the choice they would not be in the weapon.
be safe
If you read the FBI report on wounding ballistics, penetration, deep enough to reach the central nervous system, is THE critical issue in quick stops. Tearing flesh and blood vessels will NOT immediately stop a threat.
That said, I would favor SWC over a WC. Why? because usually SWC are loaded for more power and will have more penetration and less tendency to tumble. Depending on the SWC design, they could have a wide, flat meplate.
Am I using WC or SWC for defense? No, but I've thought about SWC. I certainly would have no qualms about effectiveness if I grabbed my 44 magnum with the 300 gr SWC deer loads (one round, one deer).
Ken
That said, I would favor SWC over a WC. Why? because usually SWC are loaded for more power and will have more penetration and less tendency to tumble. Depending on the SWC design, they could have a wide, flat meplate.
Am I using WC or SWC for defense? No, but I've thought about SWC. I certainly would have no qualms about effectiveness if I grabbed my 44 magnum with the 300 gr SWC deer loads (one round, one deer).
Ken
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