Walker with a different twist --- .45 BPM (.45 Black Powder Magnum)

[ClemBert]

The muzzle crown has been inspected. There doesn't appear to be any issue with it. The firearm certainly seems to be accurate from the distances I've fired it from.

I posted the link to the video in another thread but I'll also post it here for completeness of the thread. The video has the complete set of flame images I was able to recover from the action footage.

Test Firing the .45 BPM in a Converted 1847 Walker Dragoon Revolver

I'll be doing some more testing soon so hopefully we'll have some more images to look at for grins.

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi Clembert,


I am curious about the WALKER Cylinder not having WALKER Indexing 'Ovals'.


I thought the WALKER and First Dragoons had Oval Cylinder Indexing notches, and, the Secind and Third Dragoons had the kinds of Notches your Cylinder has, being, rectangular instead of Oval.

 

[ClemBert]

That's right. The cap-n-ball cylinder has oval notches and the Kirst cylinder has rectangular notches. The bolt (cylinder stop) works with both.

 

[Oyeboten]

Oh!


Very cool...


I have a Colt 2nd Generation 3rd Dragoon I recently got, with a view of converting it in this way...then I remembered about the Notches and was not sure where I was at with that.

 

[ClemBert]

Yup, you can fit a Walker conversion cylinder into a 3rd Dragoon but then you have to cut the cylinder side of the barrel down to make the conversion cylinder fit. Then you have to re-do the forcing cone. Its been done but then you can't go back to cap-n-ball shooting once you do that with the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd Dragoon. Cap-n-ball shooting is just too much of a hoot, for me, to eliminate that option. Let us know how your project turns out.

 

[alienbogey]

I recently obtained an 1847 Walker reproduction and have been following this thread with great interest. Should I decide to go for a 45BPM I would first obtain a gated Kirst conversion cylinder, of course, and enlarge the loading cutout on the right side to allow loading of cartridges. Next would be reaming the cylinder for the 460S&W/45BPM cartridge, and I would prefer to have that done by the smith that has done yours because of his having done it before.

Questions:

Would you be willing to share his name, via PM if you prefer, should I decide to go for this?

Are you going to mark your cases in any way with BPM?

Although I don't own anything in 460S&W, I would surely want some way of indelibly marking 45BPM cases so I would KNOW that they have are BPM loaded. I don't imagine dedicated head stamped 45BPM cases will be at Cabela's anytime soon.....

Finally, I went to Wikipedia and there's a very informative article on the 45BPM there. Out of curiosity and since my impression is that you're the originator of this, did you you write it?

 

[ClemBert]

I'm certainly not advocating anyone follow in my footsteps. I thought I'd just share with y'all one of my many projects. Anyone who attempts such a modification should understand the risks ahead of time and take personal responsibility for their actions. Read this as: Do not try this at home kids. Attempting to emulate my actions could lead to a dangerous condition which could result in death or injury to you or others as well as possible damage to property. DON'T DO IT!!!!

Now, with that disclaimer to warn/urge others not to attempt this I'd better just PM ya.

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi Clembert,

I actually have three 3rd Model Dragoons, one an older Armi San Marco ( which seems like a very good, very well made one, luckily), and, two, 2nd Generation Colt ones.

I would not mind converting one of the Colts for it to then be a dedicated 'Conversion' which can not be put back to Cap & Ball, since I have the other two to enjoy Shooting as Cap & Ball Revolvers.


So, anything you would feel comfortable to 'PM' to me about the steps and or Smiths and so on, would be much appreciated.


Such an appealing 'Conversion' in both looks and uniqueness and power, thanks so much for pioneering it and sharing your own Work with us!

 

[TheRodDoc]

I don't think there is anything wrong with the muzzle blast in this picture. It is the smoke that is down and toward the camera a little that is being lit up by the blast. Making it look like it is all blast when the real blast shape is about as I drew in green.
And being daylight we are only seeing the brightest part of the blast.

The cyl. gap blast has the same smoke distortion effect. (all of a sudden spreading front to rear up higher).

Must have been a good breeze that day. Try shooting directly into the wind next time.

View attachment 138487

 

[pageophile]

OK, this is just about the most Stupid AWESOME thing I've seen in a while.

An I do mean that in a good way

Thank you so much for sharing.

However, my incoming Walker might not be so happy with my new found information though

 

[arcticap]

Finally, I went to Wikipedia and there's a very informative article on the 45BPM there. Out of curiosity and since my impression is that you're the originator of this, did you you write it?

I noticed that in the upper right hand column of the Wikipedia page for the .45 BPM is the following entry naming the designer. Maybe he wrote the article.

Production history

Designer Dieska
Designed 2010

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_Black_Powder_Magnum_(.45_BPM)

 

[Afy]

I want one.

 

[Oyeboten]

I would not expect any troubles from this Conversion as long as one stays with sensible Bullet Weights.

Too heavy of a Bullet with a full as possible BP charge behind it...is about all I can imagine which c-o-u-l-d, m-a-y-be, occasion some regrets.

 

[pageophile]

To ClemBert,

Was wondering about the area behind the Kriss Converter looks like it was machined out (compared to the stock Uberti) to allow proper loading of the cartridge.

Was this done by a gunsmith? Looking at the Kriss site it also shows the relief machining to load the cartridge but the Uberti site a different set-up.

Sorry if this is a stupid question.

 

[ClemBert]

This is the BEFORE pic:



This is the AFTER pic:



Jay Strite of Raven's Roost/Kirst was the gunsmith who channeled out the recoil shield. The job is as professional as to believe it came from the factory this way.

 

[ClemBert]

I don't think there is anything wrong with the muzzle blast in this picture. It is the smoke that is down and toward the camera a little that is being lit up by the blast. Making it look like it is all blast when the real blast shape is about as I drew in green.
And being daylight we are only seeing the brightest part of the blast.

The cyl. gap blast has the same smoke distortion effect. (all of a sudden spreading front to rear up higher).

Must have been a good breeze that day. Try shooting directly into the wind next time.

That's a very good point! Yes, as I recall it was a very windy day....15-20 mph winds.

 

[Hoof Hearted]

I noticed that in the upper right hand column of the Wikipedia page for the .45 BPM is the following entry naming the designer. Maybe he wrote the article.

This has been done many times.........
Here's mine:





Not trying to disparage Clembert in any way


Jay Strite (Raven's Roost) and I collaborated on this starting back in 2009 and Walt and I kicked the idea around for quite some time before that with the idea of a 5 shot using, first 45-70 then 444 Marlin cases. The advent of the 460 S&W just made it a breeze!

 

[Hoof Hearted]

Yup, you can fit a Walker conversion cylinder into a 3rd Dragoon but then you have to cut the cylinder side of the barrel down to make the conversion cylinder fit. Then you have to re-do the forcing cone. Its been done but then you can't go back to cap-n-ball shooting once you do that with the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd Dragoon. Cap-n-ball shooting is just too much of a hoot, for me, to eliminate that option. Let us know how your project turns out.

Actually you can still shoot Cap and Ball after doing this if you procure yourself a Walker cylinder.............

 

[mr.trooper]

If you're worried about excess pressure with the 150gr bullets over the long run...

Why not just seat a 140gr round ball into the cartridge? Swage it if you have to.

That way you have the same bullet jump as a standard cap and ball load AND the same pressures, all while allowing you to take advantage of the Kirst converters reloading speed.

OR you could just drill a cavity into the nose of your heavier bullets - make them a hollow point. That would lower the weight without having an appreciable effect of accuracy. It would be a fast and simple operation for anyone with a drill press.

 

[Oyeboten]

Clembert, Hoof Hearted,

What is your appreciation or acceptnece as for the Maximum prudent Bullet Weight, with the fullest possible Black Podwer Charge behind it, for this Conversion to remain well kept?


Just off the Cuff, I was thinking, say, a 260 Grain Bullet for the highest weight prudence would permit, but, how much Powder would one expect to fit behind that, in the .460 S&W Csartridge Case?

50 Grains or so? 55?

Would it handle that alright do you suppose? Or, would that be a bit much for it?


I love the 230 Grain DEWC in my WALKER and other similar Bore Cap & Ball and also .45 Colt Metallic Cartridge Revolvers, and, I see no reason why a 260 Grain Bullet would not be fine with them for that matter...so, wondering along those lines of course, for this...knowing, of course, that this allows a larger Powder Charge than my regular ones do.

 

[Hoof Hearted]

Oyeboten

I had this conversation early on with Clembert.......

As we all know many things affect pressure. I chose to NOT have a throat in my chambers (as many original conversions and the Cap and Ball does not). It is my opinion that this acts as "freebore" and helps with a situation unique to open top Colt designs. The Open Top has no "gas ring" or shoulder at the front of the cylinder. This means that your headspace is a combination of cylinder gap and cartridge rim play at the rear. When the hammer strikes the primer it pushes the cylinder forward then the detonation slams the combined weight of the cylinder and the cartidges rearward, with the weight involved here this is magnified over say a Navy or Army conversion. The only real issues we have seen to date are "peening" of the breech face around the firing pin on the convertor ring. The guy who had this happen was firing about 50gr of 3f Swiss with 350gr bullets and he had chambered his cylinder to a slightly shortened version of the 460 case and had approximately .300 throats of .454 diameter.

With my setup (straightbore) I regularly shoot 250gr bullets behind 52 to 60gr of 2f goex. I have also shot Swiss but 52gr of goex with a vegetable fiber card behind the bullet burns very clean. I will tell you, though, sight regulation leaves a bit to be desired.....

 

[ClemBert]

Actually you can still shoot Cap and Ball after doing this if you procure yourself a Walker cylinder.............

I always say that just about anything is possible with enough money!

 

[ClemBert]

What is your appreciation or acceptnece as for the Maximum prudent Bullet Weight, with the fullest possible Black Podwer Charge behind it, for this Conversion to remain well kept?

For your application I would consult with HH on this as you both have 2nd generation Colt Dragoons whereas mine is an Uberti Walker. With the high pressure/energy loads the metallurgy of these open tops can come into play. There are those fellas who have reproduction Walkers who have stated they've seen damage occur with 60 grain loads and a round ball. Specifically, they have observed damage to the wedge or the arbor. I seem to recall that the common denominator with these is they were ASM production....but don't quote me on that. Clearly there are some folks with reproduction firearms with softer metals than others.

I've fired several hundred .45 BPM round though my Walker. Only a few rounds were full loads with 250 grain bullets. I did it just for s**ts and giggles with no scientific merit. I have not seen any damage to any components on my Walker yet. However, I'm careful to take into consideration the powder load versus the projectile weight. As you've seen from my video my 60 grains loads are reserved for either round ball or 150 grain BigLube bullets. Until I get around to doing some serious chrony work I won't have recommendations for my application. And when that happens it will be CYA as I will not encourage folks to do what I did. This could very well be a stupid and idiotic project. Only time will tell.

I did retain about 1/3" of the cylinder throats in my cylinder. I consulted with a friend of mine who is a real live rocket scientist...he worked for the Rockwell Missile and Space Division for years designing Hellfire missiles and such. Even though I'm an engineer by trade (electronics) his background and formal education as an engineer have him in a position to understand gas seals, pressure, yada, yada, yada. With my design you have a more efficient use of the gas generated as the powder burns with less likelihood of blowback past the brass. In fact the result of all my test firings is rather impressive with no evidence of blowback whatsoever. The throats essentially become an extension of the inside diameter of the brass casing. This, versus and increased diameter beyond the brass when there are no cylinder throats. Those 1/3" throats have a smaller volume than the same area without throats. Its not a lot of volume difference but it does create a condition where there is potential for a slight pressure spike and again, more potential for blowback. Anyhoo, that is the reasoning for keeping the cylinder throats in very general terms. The one thing I learned from being an engineer for so many years is that when there is a problem to be solved there are always going to be many different solutions and many implementations.

 

[Oyeboten]

Thank you both very much for the continued elaborations and info.


Yes, I also have read several references to some of the 'ASM' Dragoons or Walkers being a little soft in some areas and or suffering wear or deterioration from too many heavy Charges.


I recall no such or similar reports regardig Colt or Uberti WALKERS or Dragoons.


My own interests do not include the use of the heaviest Charges and Bullets as a usual thing.

For plinking and fun, I prefer reduced Charges and or moderate Bullet weight also...and I intend to start using the recommended 'filler' for reduced charges to still allow the Ball or Bullet to be at the Cylinder's End in Cap & Ball, or, same I s'pose with BP Metallic Cartridge.

Some situations of course would recommend particularly heavy Bullets and full charges.



If 50 odd Grains of 'Swiss', with a 350 Grain Bullet, is something one could get away with some of the time, with SOME individual or certain Make Revolvers, than that is plenty impressive enough for me! even if we all were to agree, that not all converted WALKERS or Dragoons would handle it, and, that even with the ones which seem to handle it, over time, this might be a bit much for the Revolver-Conversion to put up with, or that it could lead to some deterioration or problems.


My own thoughts have been for 260 Grain to be my top end for Bullet Weight...with Ball and reduced Charges being the usual Plinking round.

 

[ClemBert]

If you're worried about excess pressure with the 150gr bullets over the long run...

Why not just seat a 140gr round ball into the cartridge? Swage it if you have to.

That way you have the same bullet jump as a standard cap and ball load AND the same pressures, all while allowing you to take advantage of the Kirst converters reloading speed.

OR you could just drill a cavity into the nose of your heavier bullets - make them a hollow point. That would lower the weight without having an appreciable effect of accuracy. It would be a fast and simple operation for anyone with a drill press.

I'm not following you. Maybe you missed the following picture from page 2 of this thread. There isn't a concern about 150 grain bullets. They are as close as is possible to a 141 grain round ball.



Round ball load on right....150 grain BigLube next to round ball.