Wanye is out of his mind

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So I guess according to many people on this thread, the mom allowing the Sandy Hook perpetrator to lock himself in his room all day watching violent video games had no bearing on his mental illness?

As to what the NRA proposed, at least they are doing something now as opposed to the politicians who want to wait until next month. And no, waiting for the new Congressional session is not an excuse.
 
This thread derailed fast....I didnt expect it to go that way to quick I guess.

I cant even follow it now...meh ohwell.


The point is no laws are going to change anything.

We must protect our schools in this country. With all the money this government wastes and spends there has got to be change. There is plenty of money to protect our schools! It must be done.

No laws are going to change anything, period.

I dont care if we put cops in schools....arm the teachers, principals...heck arm the lunch ladies! if it protects our kids, it needs to be done.


Got it off my chest. Now I can be done with this train wreck thread.
 
You guys are letting a guy with 27 post ruffle your feathers like this? He probably joined this morning just to screw with you. Quit feeding the troll.
 
I don't believe it is necessary to have armed guards (or qualified school staff) in every school, and it's unlikely to happen - especially in liberal school districts.

What would be more practical would be to get rid of the "gun free zone" mentality and instead go to "those who enter here with evil intent will never have the opportunity to get started."

With maximum news coverage concerning the new guard policy and keeping the guards in plain clothes, any potential shooter would have to proceed without knowing for sure which schools were or were not guarded, and if he made a mistake he’d likely go down before he could do what he intended. Given the risk to himself and his intentions he’d likely pick a different kind of target.

The saying, “When seconds count the police are only minutes away,” is spot on. Anything that can be done (sometimes as simple as putting dead-bolt locks on the inside classroom doors) and delay a shooter long enough for responders to arrive is going in the right direction.

Also regardless of what they’re affect really is, deflecting the discussion toward video games and away from guns is a good tactic. If the discussion is expanded the original target will be soon be put on the back burner, and the attack on guns will become less focused. This press conference was met to confuse and confound the news media and widen the discussion to subjects beside guns. In the meantime we can expect the NRA to have private meetings with influential people where they will get their core points across. They’ve been doing this for years, and its worked.
 
Unless you want restrictions on what you can play and watch, blaming TV or Xbox isn't the right path to take and won't make any difference anyways.
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No doubt, I am not going let one of my past times (which IMO is protected by the first amendment) be attacked, just to save my other past time (protected by the second amendment).

I'll have to wait and see the rest of the NRA's response, but if it is just "regulate video games and other media"...then they don't have my support.
 
I'm sadly unimpressed with the NRA. I had hoped they used their down time to come up with something creative to provide talking points and options for the reps on our side. But instead Wayne spewed some nonsense about how horrible the crime rate is (which is totally incorrect) and how much the media is to blame. There was also a suggestion of more efforts to make all schools minimum security prisons.

BALL DROPPED BIG TIME!

He's talking about armed security for schools -- sounds good to me.

So every kid k-12 goes through metal detectors and gets used to having no liberty at all. It's pernicious nonsense. Not to mention being totally unworkable and astronomically expensive.

The answer here was obvious--focus on the dangerously insane. The folks who used to be in the rubber room for life. It's sensible, it can be done with some changes to a few key laws, and it's not too expensive. Best of all it actually WOULD curb the rate of spree killings. Not all of these killers were known to be nutcases, but a lot of them were.

can you really honestly say these games aren't disgusting?

Yes. Some are boring, but many are fantastic. Video games have become superior to movies in the genres of horror, suspense and action. They are the next frontier of creativity. I will fight to my dying breath against any effort to regulate them. One that came out last year, Skyrim, is chock full of ultra violence and blood. But it's also sublimely beautiful and even with hackneyed plots and too-easy quests it still amazes me. You cannot quash the one without quashing the other. The sublime and wonderous evolution of creative expression cannot be achieved under the boot of government censorship.
 
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You guys are letting a guy with 27 post ruffle your feathers like this? He probably joined this morning just to screw with you. Quit feeding the troll.
I joined this board before you did. and now its 28
 
I'm sadly unimpressed with the NRA. I had hoped they used their down time to come up with something creative to provide talking points and options for the reps on our side. But instead Wayne spewed some nonsense about how horrible the crime rate is (which is totally incorrect) and how much the media is to blame. There was also a suggestion of more efforts to make all schools minimum security prisons.

BALL DROPPED BIG TIME!



So every kid k-12 goes through metal detectors and gets used to having no liberty at all. It's pernicious nonsense. Not to mention being totally unworkable and astronomically expensive.

The answer here was obvious--focus on the dangerously insane. The folks who used to be in the rubber room for life. It's sensible, it can be done with some changes to a few key laws, and it's not too expensive. Best of all it actually WOULD curb the rate of spree killings. Not all of these killers were known to be nutcases, but a lot of them were.
Then I'd suggest you become more involved with the GOA (or the organization of your choice.) If you don't like the NRA, fine. Don't use it as an excuse not to get involved.
 
legistation that wont erode our rights

But you understand that legislation does erode our rights, that's what legislation is, limiting your ability and freedom. It may seem like a good idea, but there are other consequences.

I also understand you're trying to trade off, thinking that I'll accept this (locks), if we don't get that (AWB). However, it's not that easy and won't get you where you need to be in the end, which is to prevent this from happening again, and protecting against when it does.

because you and I know they are very different things

But they are not. They are tools, just as dangerous, if not more.

BTW Napalm, I'm enjoying our discussion. I hope you are as well.
 
They are all tools and of course they are different things otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned it. I think I am going to bowel out of this conversation. No point to it.
 
Taking a normal 10 y/o kid, giving him violent (think GTA) video games, no attention, and pump him full of endless vaccicnes, I think we are getting what we were asking for. I stand by Wanye.
 
This is definitely not the time to be bashing the NRA.

For better or worse, they're seen as our leaders. And when they come up with something this profoundly idiotic in response to the most serious crisis we've seen in years then we had better make our displeasure known to Wayne and the board. Going along with this madness is not really an option.

I DO NOT SUPPORT THE SECOND AT THE EXPENSE OF THE FIRST!

Not now, not ever.
 
Wayne didn't place all the blame on video games, he simply used it as a piece to the puzzle portraying the whole picture of what is wrong. I think he did a great job and I am currently on the phone ( been on hold for 30 minutes) trying to give them some money. Go NRA!!
 
Cosmoline said:
For better or worse, they're seen as our leaders. And when they come up with something this profoundly idiotic in response to the most serious crisis we've seen in years then we had better make our displeasure known to Wayne and the board. Going along with this madness is not really an option.

Mass murders are a problem and must be addressed. Our opponents want the public to view gun control as the only solution to mass murders. Focusing our response solely on gun control would play directly into the perception that our opponents want to create.

Today was the NRA's first publicity move in a possibly long and difficult struggle. The NRA reminded the public that the problem of mass murders is complex and requires a discussion of many factors - not just gun control.
 
Helping people deal with their anger/mental illness with both spiritual and mental help and some sort of armed security in every school is a great start.
 
This is definitely not the time to be bashing the NRA. This infighting crap is the reason we still have obama in the white house because, the republicans couldn't agree on anything. Take your "I'm just not gonna support the NRA anymore" crap somewhere else. I'm pretty tired of it.

So, are we just supposed to blindly support this organization, without critique, just because it is the biggest dog in the show? I disagree with that sentiment.

I think the NRA made some good points, like suggesting a program for armed security at the schools. But, I also think they missed the mark on that item by not going into enough detail. Thousands of us have been suggesting an armed security program for the schools in the wake of this shooting, but the NRA didn't seem to detail how we would lead the way to implement such a program, or explain how it would be funded. We have over 1,700 schools here in Colorado, each that is probably in session for 250 days each year, for (lets say) 8 hours per day. That's 3,400,000 man-hours needed to keep an armed good-guy in every school for every hour of every day. Figure $15/hr minimum for someone with that training level (and that's a volunteer level wage for a skilled police officer), and now we're looking at $51 Million a year, just for my state. So, a more reasonable approach from a tight-budget perspective would probably be to have some undercover security (think: Sky Marshall) rotating through the schools to provide an armed deterrent, along with a corps of volunteers who could augment this program to provide for security in places that needed more of it. Otherwise, we'll have to convince struggling tax payers to chip in a few more dollars each year as a means of funding such a program (I'd be willing to pay some extra taxes for it, but I doubt most people would... money talks).

Obviously I don't have all of the answers, but I figured the NRA's speech writers could have come up with something a bit more bold, with a few more details. I also feel that blaming video games missed the mark. The logic is flawed: for years we've said that "guns don't kill people, people kill people". Now we're going to argue that video games killed people? Come on, the other side isn't buying that argument. It may have contributed to some bad morality for these kids, but the fact still remains that a psychopath killed these children because he was a severely screwed up individual who lacked any moral compass, and was allowed to get himself in the presence of unarmed/defenseless children. Guns aren't to blame, but by extension, neither are video games.

Believe me, I want the NRA in this fight. But, the NRA isn't really shining in this debate at the moment. Also, the NRA needs to get some new blood in this fight. They need to throw someone on stage who is able to effectively debate the issue with the other side, and they need to answer the questions that the other side is raising. We've already proven that we can logically defend our position on nearly every issue that the anti-gun movement argues against us, yet the NRA is not fielding those questions and debunking those myths. Like it or not, politics is a sales pitch, and I think the NRA is currently falling short in the PR battle. Put a young, good-looking, skilled female NRA member on the stage, and let her debate the pants off of the other side. We have good points, and our arguments are solid. But, we need to share that information with those who don't understand guns, or the realities of violence. And, it would be best if the person who answered those questions is someone that a mother of school children could easily relate to.
 
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I want to inflict a boot to the backside of whatever hack wrote this drivel:

“There exists in this country, sadly, a callous, corrupt and corrupting shadow industry that sells and stows violence against its own people, through vicious, violent video games with names like “Bulletstorm,” “Grand Theft Auto,” “Mortal Kombat,” and “Splatterhouse.”

It's something I'd expect to hear from a blue haired crank at a city council meeting. Splatterhouse?! The arcade game from 1988?! GTA? A lot of today's gun owners played Mortal Kombat. We grew up with these games. This is just sad, and makes me wonder if the NRA board is simply full of bitter and foolish old men.

Those clunky, brutal old games have evolved into THIS, thanks to the protections of free expression and a lack of government meddling:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIQLZsB5nfU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ch-H9Swk-bw

It's not a menace to society, it's the next great art form being developed right before our eyes. The first steps are crude and simplistic, as they always are. Scrawls of monsters and mammoths being hunted by little guys on a cave wall. But each step takes us into new territory, and a lot of these games have been introducing more complex dramatic plotlines that turn heroes into villains and make you wonder if you're the good guy after sending WP down on a bunch of refugees. The immersion allows the creators to bring things to life in a way never before possible. And even state of the art movies are starting to look dated and inadequate in comparison.

I also find the reference to a "shadow industry" to be hilarious. The biggest of these games gross UPWARDS OF A BILLION DOLLARS per release. That's not a shadow, in fact it's considerably larger than the little gun making industry. So picking a fight with those guys--NOT a good idea.

It was just plain stupid. The best thing that can happen now is to try a do over and pretend it never happened.

This is what happens when we turn from the path of righteousness and start trying to win arguments with fear mongering instead of facts and logic.
 
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I agree that those should have been included to point to the root causes of high violence rates in parts of the country and the specifics of this incident and other mass murders.

The mental health issue is directly related to this incident and the other mass shootings in this country and those high profile crimes need to be the focus of the press conference. The other violent crimes tend to relate to the root causes you've cited of poverty, education, crime. Since they're no the focus of the press and not the cause of this incident and the other mass shootings it isn't a surprise that he stayed focused on this incident and not on the other nearly unrelated broader issue.

If WL's point was to specifically address this incident, then why bring up video games at all since there is zero data or evidence to suggest this killer was playing said games or they were at play? A diversionary tactic? I call that intellectually dishonest.

If we really want to get to the root cause and protect our rights in total it calls for putting honesty above manipulation. I'd prefer to stop sacrificing that honesty in favor of some rhetorical tactic. It's terribly short-run and no different than what the antis are doing.

I can see it now: "okay, we tried to further restrict violent video games and we just had another tragic shooting. We tried it your way, now we're going after guns."

I'm strongly in favor of armed SROs on schools. If we guard our money we can guard our kids.
 
Sadly since the massacre the threats are all coming within the schools from classmates including my own child's school.We have to protect them from each other somehow. Sadly metal detectors would help.
 
The NRA strategy was brilliant; I’m glad I’m a life member and have just sent in an additional contribution for a job well done.

The only “solution” the White House was looking for is a complete ban on “assault” weapons and limits on high capacity magazines. The NRA countered with a number of possible causes to the problem and a real solution, the training and presence of armed security. The reference to the fact that all government officials have armed guards gave credence to the current administration’s hypocrisy.

Those that dismiss some of the possible causes, e.g., video games, do so because they themselves do not believe it leads to the tragic events. It’s another knee-jerk reaction against a threat to their rights or pursuit of their happiness.

This issue can be debated forever since the problem, evilness, is unsolvable. Any solution is going to be viewed from the ideology or jaundice eye of those affected.

The NRA isn’t an inanimate object; it’s comprised of gun loving Americans. If you believe the NRA isn’t doing a good job in defending your 2A rights, then farewell. Remember also that it could lead to farewell to arms.
 
Hso's post is dead on the money. Wayne could be practicing Judo and using the will of other people to get done what the NRA wants to get done. It's manipulation at it's worst (or best) but dire times call for dire measures.

The NRA can't afford to teach basic principles when people are thinking irrationally. His speech should be based on how to redirect the anger.

Save the teaching for peace time when people are more level headed and less reactionary.

It sucks, but it's politics.

hso said:
Be sure to digest the entire presentation and think about it in the context of winning the battle on RKBA. Feints, flanking and even apparent retreats are used to distract and put your enemy off balance to help you WIN. With many many people pointing at the pervasive violence depicted in entertainment and many many people pointing at the absence of effective security to schools it does make sense to use those groups as co-combatants if not outright allies.

The NRA's public pronouncements are just part of an overall strategy that includes pandering to the public, political pressure against Anti politicians, support for pro RKBA politicians.
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