Well, it finally happened

[dog3]

Last time I was stopped without cause was probable something like 12 or so years ago.
Things were a bit different then. I was recently home from a tour of duty in Germany where in essence there is no BoR, and stop and search on a whim is the rule of the day. It works, catch a lot of bad guys that way.

I remember when chatting with some polizei I knew, that I'd laugh and say things, Never happen. can't do it. We have laws AGAINST this stuff. Yeah, we have a BoR. Traffic and Speed cameras? Sheesh, you've got to be kidding! Not in the US. We have more respect for ourselves.

How clueless was I?

So, a few weeks back, I was lazily driving up a back road in Northern Va, a few miles from my homestate, "Montani semper liberi" and drove around a corner in my typisch WV mid 80s ford van, right into a "no cause" traffic stop.

It was a typical, very much like what we did in Germany, stop. Run by the Virginia State Police. Side road to a high traffic limited access highway. The kind of road that "certain types" might use to avoid normal traffic enforcement. It was a good spot. They already had two emmigrant labor yard work trucks off to the side with about half a dozen laborers standing to the side. No chance their paperwork was in order. "Papers please".

One of the largest State Police Officers I've ever seen approaches my now-open
window, and with a winning smile doing his best "Officer Friendly", exchanges
greetings with me and requests my papers (Auswiess kontrol bitte')

Now, his officer friendly was pretty good. In fact, it was excellent. I have been
tested and have a pretty good BS detector, and it has been honed by training
in "interviewing techniques". This guy was a really friendly nice fellow. I already
tend to defer to authority as I was raised that way, and have always had high degree
of respect for police in general, and State Police in particular.

"Gottem right here, I'm reaching for them now" I said, as I had to reach behind me as
I keep my papers in my cd bag which hangs off the drivers seat. Now, this old van I'm driving is a typical WV ride. rotten exhaust, lots of primer, tools and trash scattered everywhere. Empty coffee cups, dashboard overflowing with everything from
2 year old copies of The Linux Journal to ancient reciepts from Blockbuster video.
I hand over my papers. I'm happy, proud of the fact that not only do I have all three
things requested, they are all current, valid, and all show the same address, which
is actually correct. Probably the first time in my whole life.

Officer friendly checks them all out, slides them into his clipboard, glances around
the cab of the van, (I don't know how well he checked it all out while I was
getting my papers, I know how well I would have, and I'm sure he did a better
job) and asked, "Do you have any alcohol or firearms in your vehicle?"
What kind of question is that? Holy Cow! I've been profiled!
"Not right now" I replied. He was comming on fast and friendly, down right chatty
and just as nice as you please. Man, this guy was good! I was defenseless.
"Mind if I have a look?" He was now leaning his crossed arms on my window.
Cat that ate the canary smile on his handsome face. Now I know why D.I.s, Drill
Sargents, and State Police all wear the Round Brown. Once you've been programmed
by one, you can't refuse the other. I pause, I look around behind me. Chainsaws, tool
boxes, of course, there is actually a nice sleeping platform back there with flannel
sheets and nice pendelton wool blankets, really comfortable actually. And beneath it,
well, beneath it could be a whole world of sins. I don't need to do a mental inventory,
I know I am unarmed, I know I don't even drink. I do have a cooler back there, it's got
water, gatorade etcetera. Here I am, beard going grey, long hair, dirty carharts, a true
West Virginian. I think this fellow thinks he's going to find guns and alcohol. That I told
him no seems to have triggered something. Are guns and alcohol illegal in old dominion? I don't think so. Where's he going with this. I don't say anything, I turn back
and look him in the eye. His demeanor remains cheerful, and he's waiting for my reply.


'If I say yes, I mind, is that going to bug ya?"
(your serve!)
He quickly shoots his eyes over at the folks standing off the side
off the side of the road next to their trucks. It must mean something,
he must be implying something, I can't read it, too quick

"Sir, you can refuse a search, I am just asking if you mind."
I pause again.

He's got me. all the big talk I've done over the years is meaningless.
I take a deep breath, and reply;

"Look, this is you and me talking right here, right now. If you think that
there is something amiss here, I want you to feel comfortable. I appreciate
what you do. I thank you for your service. If you want to search my vehicle,
I'm not going to say to no. This is because I want you to feel satisfied
that everything is okay. You have enough grief just doing this job. I
don't want to cause any more. But I have to say, that I feel this is
a no cause stop."

He nodded in a non-commiting way. Asked me to step out, I did. Asked
me around the back (still in view of one of the other officers present) and
asked me to open the back door. Just as I thought, he wanted a peek
under the deck. More tool bags and a whole lot of rubbermade storage tubs. I
asked him if there was anything he'd like me to take out and open for
him. He asked if I would take out one tool bag and one of the
storage tubs from the second row. I did, and opened them. Sawzalls,
drills and my flyfishing gear.

He thanked me for my time, returned my papers from his clipboard, and sent
me on my way.

Alcohol and guns?
Why?

Ya know what? I know I am supposed to be this raving tin-hat nutcase, but
in the end, I'm a friendly guy, and I like and trust the police, and I don't
want a guy or gal to go home with doubts as to whether they did their
job today. A part of me feels like I caved without a fuss, another part feels
like I did my duty as a citizen.

I don't like the new laws. I really don't. This is America d*mnit! This ain't
anywhere else but!

Never happen here? I often wonder if those old timer Polizei thought I was a
fool. I guess I was.

 

[Quartus]

Last I heard SCOTUS had said no to this kind of stuff.



In any case there's no way I'd have given permission for a search.



It ain't about what I might have to hide - it's about the kind of country I want to live in. I will not help it become a police state, not even a little bit. Every time you fail to refuse permission to search you without cause, you contribute to the slide downward.

 

[ctdonath]

"Sir, you can refuse a search, I am just asking if you mind."

You let them search.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"Last I heard SCOTUS had said no to this kind of stuff."

Said no to what?

Searching a car after the driver GIVES them permission to search it?

 

[TarpleyG]

I think he meant no to the no-cause police barricades.

GT

 

[Mike Irwin]

"I think he meant no to the no-cause police barricades."

Ah. That I don't know.

 

[Brett Bellmore]

Never volunteer for a search. They can find things that weren't there until they looked, after all. And then don't have to prove that YOU put them there.

Of course, given the description of your car, they probably wouldn't want to confiscate it.

 

[Sam Adams]

[Sorry, I couldn't delete this post, so I just pasted this in instead]

 

[Sam Adams]

A part of me feels like I caved without a fuss

No disrespect intended, but you did.

I will never consent to a search. They want to search me, my car or house, they need a warrant. If there's true probable cause, then they'll have to eventually prove it in a court of law before a jury. As gun owners, we all need to be extremely careful about helping the police investigate us. Thanks to the lovely laws passed in the last 10 or so years, being convicted of even the most minor offense could get your guns taken away for life. And what Brett said

They can find things that weren't there until they looked, after all.

certainly applies in the case of less honest cops, of which there are a few. While my presumption is that any particular cop is honest, I don't wish to risk my freedom by naively trusting someone who gets better job approval ratings based on the number of arrests he makes, and helping him boost that total by letting my car be searched for no good reason.

That being said, I am generally very much like you in the sense that I am a law-abiding citizen and I don't like giving the cops a hard time - their jobs aren't exactly easy to begin with, and most of them are very good folks that honestly want to help out regular folks like us. But I will be damned if I'm going to go quietly into the night of a Police State. Despite the best efforts of the SCOTUS, the Congress and the Executive over the last few years, we still have a few of our rights. Knowing that I've done nothing wrong and am extremely unlikely to do so in the future, I won't permit anyone to treat me like a criminal easily - again, let them get a warrant, let them state what probable cause they have to search your person or effects and back it up in court if they were wrong. Oh, and always be polite: lots of "yes, sir"s and "no sir"s and "with all due respect sir"s, etc. - and I'll always keep my hands visible and exit the car if they want me to, etc. But warrantless searches - NFW.

 

[Quartus]

certainly applies in the case of less honest cops, of which there are a few.

And it only takes ONE to wreck your life.




Yes, btw, I was referring to no-cause stops.

 

[Sam Adams]

And it only takes ONE to wreck your life.

Indeed, that is truly the case. That is my entire reasoning behind not allowing a warrantless search of my person or my effects. Again, most cops are thoroughly decent and honest folks, and probably couldn't care less what you do if you don't hurt or threaten others, but if they're in your car searching you are behind the 8-ball.

 

[Brett Bellmore]

Heck, the cop doesn't even have to be dishonest. What might have fallen out of the pocket of that hitchhiker you gave a lift to last week? What might you have forgotten was in the car? Or never knew, because some other family member, or friend, left it there?

The point is, you took a gamble, with essentially nothing to gain, and your liberty to lose.

 

[hillbilly]

Best answer I've ever heard to the "may I search your vehicle" question is the following:

Smile, shake your head and say, "My (dad or mother or uncle or aunt or bro-in-law or cousin or brother or rabbi or neighbor) is a lawyer and he (or she) would just KILL me if I consented to a warrantless search."

hillbilly

 

[mercedesrules]

(dog3)...stop and search on a whim is the rule of the day. It works, catch a lot of bad guys that way.

You're too kind. The only thing police should be doing is capturing violent felons and recovering stolen property. Stopping people at random is a p##s-poor way to do that.

People driving around peacefully with their own property aren't "bad guys"

 

[Carlos]

Glad it turned out fine. Sounds like you're a nice guy and the cop saw that.

Next time, say NO!!!!

Good post, as you kept me on the edge of my seat the whole time.

LOL

 

[Edward429451]

I agree to 'just say no'

Maybe, the more people who excercise their rights, the more LEO's will start to catch on that there is something to this constitutional stuff and start respecting them more, and taking offense less when people say no.

It's an interesting little dance to say no polite enough that you get your way and they do not take offense at the same time.

 

[Dan from MI]

I will never consent to a warrentless search.

 

[papercut]

Quartus remarked:
Last I heard SCOTUS had said no to this kind of stuff.

IIRC, they didn't say that the police were prohibited from doing it at all, just that when they did, there had to be a specific pattern (i.e., every 5th car). IANAL, IANAC, other disclaimers apply. Ask over in the Cop Talk forum at GlockTalk, I'm sure someone (or many someones) can give you more details.

 

[Roadkill Coyote]

Although the City of Indianapolis lost, the Court didn't close the door on checkpoints by any stretch of the imagination.

The Supreme Court in 2000 ruled that checkpoints operating absent individualized suspicion could not be used for narcotics, or "ordinary criminal wrongdoing". But it still leaves the door open for INS checkpoints within 100 miles of the border, DUI checkpoints, and possibly checkpoints relating to D.L. and registration checks.

CITY OF INDIANAPOLIS et al. v. EDMOND et al.

The more recent ruling concerning fake checkpoints here in Colorado has been discussed extensively in this forum.

 

[Tag]

you can refuse all you want, every state cop I've ever been stopped by did what he pleased regardless.

I've told state police that I did not want them to search my car, given that the driver side door was broken and the passenger door was too... I had to crawl in and out the window. His response; "I understand that sir, will you please step out of the car" Now I didn't have anything to hide, I was on my way home from work and didn't feel like a random 20 minute interogation. It was almost worth it to see the officer crawl halfway into my car through the window, but not really.

I will alwase refuse to let them search me, and a few have of them listened. The last time I got pulled over was on my way back to school. I had pulled onto a side road and into a public access site to relieve myself. As I was pulling out of the lot a state trooper pulled in. He followed me out and onto the main road for a good five miles before he gave me the lights. After asking for my 'papers' the next words out of his mouth were "Are there any drugs or alchohol involved here?"... Involved with what? I thought... so I said no, which must be the only response he ever get's to such brainless questions, and asked why he pulled me over. He said it was because it looked like I was "leaving pretty quick" when he pulled into the access site. I wasen't speeding, swerving, running over children or anything of the sort... State cops seem to think my bussiness is somehow their bussiness, Serve and Protect has never once come into play.

 

[greyhound]

INS checkpoints within 100 miles of the border

Somewhat off topic, but is that one of the reasons why there's so much fuss about local law enforcement not detaining illegal immigrants for being such? Its usually beyond 100 miles?

 

[stevelyn]

Never, never, never, ever give consent to a search of your vehicle or house without a warrant. Most times these check points are fishing expeditions and sometimes they catch unwary citizens. If the police honestly believe you are hiding something illegal in your vehicle or home, make them explain why they think so to a judge and obtain a search warrant. Otherwise tell them politely to pound sand.
I'm not advocating hiding illegal activity here. But police have absolutely powers to search with out probable cause to believe a crime has been committed and can articulate that fact in a sworn affidavit.

 

[jimpeel]

"Yes, I mind, and no you may not search my vehicle."

"Why not?"

"Because I watch "C.O.P.S." and "Stories of the Highway Patrol" and I have seen the way that those who consent to searches, and their property, are treated and I do not wish to have my property thrown on the ground for me to pick up and put back.

"Besides, you have yet to tell me the probable cause for this stop; and this looks to me to be nothing more than a 'no-cause' barricade to all through traffic in violation of the Supreme Court ruling that these types of checkpoints are unconstitutional.

"What is your probable cause for stopping me besides my being a part of the herd?"

 

[Moparmike]

This is NOT a cop bashing post...

"Sie papieren, bitte."...."Danke. Ihre Papiere sind aus der Reihenfolge. Gehen Sie bitte das Fahrzeug aus und reichen Sie zu warrantless Regierung Vergewaltigung ein. "


Your papers please. Thank you. Your papers are out of order. Please exit the vehicle and submit to the warrantless rape by the government.


I hate those sort of things. It scares me just to think about going out to my mom's house with a trunk full of legally possessed firearms. But they wouldnt believe that, now would they? Alles Klar, ja?

 

[Balog]

dog3 wrote:

I'm a friendly guy,

Good for you. Makes life a lot easier I've found.

and I like and trust the police,

Why is that? As all our resident LEO-apologists always proclaim when a cop shoots someone without sufficient cause, they're just human. Why trust them anymore than any other person who chose a career that would give them power over others?

and I don't
want a guy or gal to go home with doubts as to whether they did their
job today.

Touching. I suppose I should abstain from attempting to stop my local politicians from violating my rights lest they develop an inferiority complex.

A part of me feels like I caved without a fuss, another part feels
like I did my duty as a citizen.

Actually, you failed in your duty as a citizen. If you've ever taken an oath to defend the Constitution you failed that as well.
Letting ANY .gov member abuse your rights is A) Giving tacit pernission to such violations & B) Reaffirming the "right" of the .gov agent to do so. Cooperating with baseless, warrantless searches is actively evil. Just like turning in runaway slaves because "It's the law." Or reporting hiding Jews to the brownshirts. Of course, in this case only your own rights were violated, so it lacks the moral onus of directly injuring another. But it's still wrong. It's no different from not resisting a mugger, only it's probably less dangerous to say "No" to a cop. Your willing participation contributes to future abuses. Not to mention the practical ramifications that have already been mentioned.