DJ E.
Member
So how about when they pull you over b/c 'one of the license plate lights are out'. Is that sufficient for a stop or just a tactic used by the cops? They still wouldn't have a right to search though.
Well, it finally happened
- Thread starter dog3
- Start date
- Status
You have no rights, haven't we figured that out yet. LIke someone before said, "they will search no matter what, if thats what they, LEO, have in mind from the start". SO, where are your rights. What can you do if you feel you have been wronged by an illegal search? Not much. As stated in other threads, courts 9 out of 10 times take the LEO's word as the gospel, when a citizens word is suspect 100% of the time.
I would, and have, refused a vehicle search. Believe me, you have no rights. Most LEO's are JBT's in my book. Even the so called good ones, because the good ones, as we say, should be the ones leading the parades to stone all the bad apple cops. They aren't. They hide behind the protection of being Law Enforcement, like the screw ups that tasered the wrong man. Where are the criminal charges on that one? Face it, the police state is here, we havent admitted it yet, but it is here.
I just wonder, when will we say ENOUGH.
I would, and have, refused a vehicle search. Believe me, you have no rights. Most LEO's are JBT's in my book. Even the so called good ones, because the good ones, as we say, should be the ones leading the parades to stone all the bad apple cops. They aren't. They hide behind the protection of being Law Enforcement, like the screw ups that tasered the wrong man. Where are the criminal charges on that one? Face it, the police state is here, we havent admitted it yet, but it is here.
I just wonder, when will we say ENOUGH.
Don Gwinn
Moderator Emeritus
I don't allow searches. As someone else pointed out, you don't even have to be breaking the law to get into trouble. When I was in college and working my old summer job at a day camp, my sister worked at the same place. I drove her and her boyfriend at the time to his job site, where she'd left her car the previous day.
Four days later I found a baggy of weed between the passenger seat and the console, where it had fallen from his pocket. I reamed him pretty well, and her too, as any drug conviction would have meant I could never get a teaching license (and I was halfway through a $28,000 teacher ed program at the time.)
What if I'd allowed a bogus search during that time? Criminal record, no teaching certificate--ever--and who knows what else? No thanks.
I know the conditioning is strong. It helps to remember that although the cop is probably a genuinely nice guy, that doesn't mean he's not cynically manipulating you to get a peek at your stuff. And if he feels like he didn't do his job because he let you proceed without being searched when he had no PC and you refused to give permission, then he doesn't understand his job.
My job is to sell computers to people who want them. If I don't sell a computer to someone who doesn't want one, I haven't failed to do my job. I did it. I could have lied to them about what the machine could do and what it cost and maybe I'd have sold a computer, but that's not my job.
Four days later I found a baggy of weed between the passenger seat and the console, where it had fallen from his pocket. I reamed him pretty well, and her too, as any drug conviction would have meant I could never get a teaching license (and I was halfway through a $28,000 teacher ed program at the time.)
What if I'd allowed a bogus search during that time? Criminal record, no teaching certificate--ever--and who knows what else? No thanks.
I know the conditioning is strong. It helps to remember that although the cop is probably a genuinely nice guy, that doesn't mean he's not cynically manipulating you to get a peek at your stuff. And if he feels like he didn't do his job because he let you proceed without being searched when he had no PC and you refused to give permission, then he doesn't understand his job.
My job is to sell computers to people who want them. If I don't sell a computer to someone who doesn't want one, I haven't failed to do my job. I did it. I could have lied to them about what the machine could do and what it cost and maybe I'd have sold a computer, but that's not my job.
Ryder
Member
I've had my vehicle searched twice in Michigan.
The last time was at a border crossing, coming back from Canada. They don't ask anything. Their probable cause was that I did not have in my possesion a toothbrush for a round trip visit to a friend. Wellll, that's what they said!
The time previous to that I was already handcuffed in the rear seat of the officers car before the search began (for illegal parking). He didn't ask to search anything either. According to my lawyer this state does not consider your automobile an extention of your domicile. In otherwords warrants only apply to your home. Oops, that was 20 years ago... Used to only apply to your home.
The last time was at a border crossing, coming back from Canada. They don't ask anything. Their probable cause was that I did not have in my possesion a toothbrush for a round trip visit to a friend. Wellll, that's what they said!
The time previous to that I was already handcuffed in the rear seat of the officers car before the search began (for illegal parking). He didn't ask to search anything either. According to my lawyer this state does not consider your automobile an extention of your domicile. In otherwords warrants only apply to your home. Oops, that was 20 years ago... Used to only apply to your home.
Balog
Member
Ryder: why would the cops handcuff you over parking in the wrong place? Seems a bit extreme.
dog3
Member
Wow;
Pretty interesting responses all around. All of the same mind. Sure would have liked to
have had a few first person blow-by-blow (sic) accounts of declining a request to
have a peek in similar circumstances. But I didn't get any. Kind of makes me wonder.
Now, as to the comment that what I did is equivalent to submitting to a mugging, well I
think that's a bit over the top, and I'll let it go with this comment.
For Balog;
Why do I like and trust the police? Let's see. I've been alive for half a century. I've
lived hard on both sides of the law, never have been a suburban, two car on a
cul-de-sac type. Wasn't raised like that. I've been a cop, and I've been arrested
numerous times, incarcerated twice. (charges eventually dropped in both cases. BTW,
in both cases it had to do with battery and assault and firearms and bleeding people
and all that fun stuff. but I didn't submit to a mugging).
As a vagrant hitchhiking, pot smoking, no good youth, I was sick with a nasty case of
stomach flu, hunkered down under an overpass on I-40 near Cooksville Tn back in '74.
Had a Tn State Patrolman come roust me, and litterally pick me up in his arms, and toss
me in the back of his prowler (remember when we call'ed that?) and take me to the
hospital, and check up on me the next day. Why? Because he was a good man.
Now, I also had a highway patrolman in a different part of the south toss me in the can
for a few days figuring I'd crack and wire home for money, but it didn't work out, so the
jailor took me home with him for saturday night so I wouldn't be there when the usual
suspects showed up. The jailor took me back sunday night and cut me loose on monday.
To pay for some of my sins, (and to do my part re: terrorism) I joined up in the early 80s
and spent a few years as a MP. I know the beasts pretty well I think. I do like and trust
them. Lawmakers, that's a different story, and not really germane.
For those who intended no offense, none taken, I assure you.
Yea, perhaps I've been tested and found wanting I suppose, but I've been tested in
other ways and held my own just fine. So I can live with myself.
Next time you get stopped and get asked, I'd love to hear how it all works out.
No, I ain't got cash in my mattress for any lawyers, so I get by the best I can.
And oh yeah,
anyone else EVER got the "Any alcohol or /firearms/" question before? Alcohol
yes, but firearms?
Pretty interesting responses all around. All of the same mind. Sure would have liked to
have had a few first person blow-by-blow (sic) accounts of declining a request to
have a peek in similar circumstances. But I didn't get any. Kind of makes me wonder.
Now, as to the comment that what I did is equivalent to submitting to a mugging, well I
think that's a bit over the top, and I'll let it go with this comment.
For Balog;
Why do I like and trust the police? Let's see. I've been alive for half a century. I've
lived hard on both sides of the law, never have been a suburban, two car on a
cul-de-sac type. Wasn't raised like that. I've been a cop, and I've been arrested
numerous times, incarcerated twice. (charges eventually dropped in both cases. BTW,
in both cases it had to do with battery and assault and firearms and bleeding people
and all that fun stuff. but I didn't submit to a mugging).
As a vagrant hitchhiking, pot smoking, no good youth, I was sick with a nasty case of
stomach flu, hunkered down under an overpass on I-40 near Cooksville Tn back in '74.
Had a Tn State Patrolman come roust me, and litterally pick me up in his arms, and toss
me in the back of his prowler (remember when we call'ed that?) and take me to the
hospital, and check up on me the next day. Why? Because he was a good man.
Now, I also had a highway patrolman in a different part of the south toss me in the can
for a few days figuring I'd crack and wire home for money, but it didn't work out, so the
jailor took me home with him for saturday night so I wouldn't be there when the usual
suspects showed up. The jailor took me back sunday night and cut me loose on monday.
To pay for some of my sins, (and to do my part re: terrorism) I joined up in the early 80s
and spent a few years as a MP. I know the beasts pretty well I think. I do like and trust
them. Lawmakers, that's a different story, and not really germane.
For those who intended no offense, none taken, I assure you.
Yea, perhaps I've been tested and found wanting I suppose, but I've been tested in
other ways and held my own just fine. So I can live with myself.
Next time you get stopped and get asked, I'd love to hear how it all works out.
No, I ain't got cash in my mattress for any lawyers, so I get by the best I can.
And oh yeah,
anyone else EVER got the "Any alcohol or /firearms/" question before? Alcohol
yes, but firearms?
LifeNRA
Member
This brings up an interesting question, at least to me. Would anyone here not tell an officer he or she was armed? I mean if you have a concealed handgun permit and are perfectly legal. I dont know how it works in other states but here in North Carolina if you have a concealed handgun permit and you are carrying a gun you are supposed to tell any officer as soon as your pulled over or stopped. I have only had this happen once to me at a traffic stop. As soon as the patrolman came to my window I informed him that I was carrying. He asked for my permit, licence and registration. Never asked to see my gun. He looked over the papers and said have a nice day. Sorry for any bad grammer and the like
dog3
Member
Replies in kind;
Hillbilly;
Very nice and well worded rejoinder. I'll certainly keep that one in mind next time.
Non-confrontational and friendly. Very good. Wish I had it last week. Would have made
for a more interesting story if it had continued past there too.
Sam Adams;
"being convicted of even the most minor offense could get your guns taken away for life. "
Well, I wasn't going to say it, but this part of the reason I am beginning to fear the police.
And I am sure that there was part of me that just wanted this no-cause stop to be over,
and once over, I'd be one my way to take care of my days chores. I don't want to
raise the ire of anyone, not just the police. Heck, I don't even flip people off any more
Yeah, it is as you said. I caved.
Tag;
"you can refuse all you want, every state cop I've ever been stopped by did what he
pleased regardless. "
I've seen plenty of that as well. Out in the People's Republic of Maryland, they
had a neat game they'd play. Out on I-68. They'd post a sign to the effect of
"Drug Check Point-10 Miles" and wait at the next exit. Everyone exited got searched.
They called exiting probable cause. I think they had to stop, but they did it.
I had always thought the "Drug Check Point" was a West Virginia thing only. No
one else would dare
Moparmike;
It was always Ausweiss kontrol, sometimes Ausweiss kontrol, bitte'. Not polite.
Again, thanks all.
Some good input.
Hillbilly;
Very nice and well worded rejoinder. I'll certainly keep that one in mind next time.
Non-confrontational and friendly. Very good. Wish I had it last week. Would have made
for a more interesting story if it had continued past there too.
Sam Adams;
"being convicted of even the most minor offense could get your guns taken away for life. "
Well, I wasn't going to say it, but this part of the reason I am beginning to fear the police.
And I am sure that there was part of me that just wanted this no-cause stop to be over,
and once over, I'd be one my way to take care of my days chores. I don't want to
raise the ire of anyone, not just the police. Heck, I don't even flip people off any more
Yeah, it is as you said. I caved.
Tag;
"you can refuse all you want, every state cop I've ever been stopped by did what he
pleased regardless. "
I've seen plenty of that as well. Out in the People's Republic of Maryland, they
had a neat game they'd play. Out on I-68. They'd post a sign to the effect of
"Drug Check Point-10 Miles" and wait at the next exit. Everyone exited got searched.
They called exiting probable cause. I think they had to stop, but they did it.
I had always thought the "Drug Check Point" was a West Virginia thing only. No
one else would dare
Moparmike;
It was always Ausweiss kontrol, sometimes Ausweiss kontrol, bitte'. Not polite.
Again, thanks all.
Some good input.
Monkeyleg
Member.
I've been "detained" numerous times in my life, most recently just six years ago in Sacramento. Absolutely no reason for the officer to pull me over, put me on the hood of the squad and hold me there for 45 minutes. It was a plain, old-fashioned roust, the same sort of thing that dog3 is describing.
Here in Milwaukee, the sheriff's department now has a guns unit. They cruise the inner city and pull over anyone they think looks suspicious and ask to search the car. If the driver refuses, the deputy radios ahead to another squad, and they pull the driver over again. They'll stop the person three or four times in just a few blocks.
Nah, we don't have any Fourth amendment infringement going on.
Here in Milwaukee, the sheriff's department now has a guns unit. They cruise the inner city and pull over anyone they think looks suspicious and ask to search the car. If the driver refuses, the deputy radios ahead to another squad, and they pull the driver over again. They'll stop the person three or four times in just a few blocks.
Nah, we don't have any Fourth amendment infringement going on.
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
Monkeyleg ... WOW!! ...... If that sh*t ain't pretty ''Police State'', I don't know what is!!
''Papeiren bitte''
''Papeiren bitte''
sturmruger
Member
Wisconny
Nothing like the good'ol Wisconsin Gestapo :banghead:
Nothing like the good'ol Wisconsin Gestapo :banghead:
Monkeyleg
Member.
sturmruger, that was Sacramento California. And the officer's justification for pulling me over would make you laugh.
But stuff like this goes on all over the country. Many years back, my friend and I were detained for over an hour. The reason? The officers were looking for a rape suspect. Suspect description was black male, early twenties. I'm white. They held us while officers from all over the district came by to look at us to see if we fit the description for any other offenses. Mind you, at the time my hair was over my ears, but it was stylishly so, and I was dressed neatly.
I've also been detained on suspicion of murder, robbery, and just looking suspicious.
The thing is, most cops are good, but they'll use whatever techniques the community and the department deem appropriate (short of physical abuse, of course). In hindsight, I think I could have filed a lawsuit against the Sacramento PD, but I really just wanted to get the **** out the state at that point.
And now I feel like I'm hijacking dog3's thread, so I'll return control of that to him.
But stuff like this goes on all over the country. Many years back, my friend and I were detained for over an hour. The reason? The officers were looking for a rape suspect. Suspect description was black male, early twenties. I'm white. They held us while officers from all over the district came by to look at us to see if we fit the description for any other offenses. Mind you, at the time my hair was over my ears, but it was stylishly so, and I was dressed neatly.
I've also been detained on suspicion of murder, robbery, and just looking suspicious.
The thing is, most cops are good, but they'll use whatever techniques the community and the department deem appropriate (short of physical abuse, of course). In hindsight, I think I could have filed a lawsuit against the Sacramento PD, but I really just wanted to get the **** out the state at that point.
And now I feel like I'm hijacking dog3's thread, so I'll return control of that to him.
WvaBill
Member
Dog,
If that had been me , seriously, there would have been gun(s) involved(CHL Reciprocity). That should have made it more interesting. I know what you mean by big troopers. I think WV gets their CO's from the same field.
I've seen MD and WV drug checkpoints where they just have their mutts scratch and sniff
Northern VA? If they're looking for alcohol, go to Franklin Co. VA. That's where ALL the good shine comes from.
Bill
If that had been me
, seriously, there would have been gun(s) involved(CHL Reciprocity). That should have made it more interesting. I know what you mean by big troopers. I think WV gets their CO's from the same field. I've seen MD and WV drug checkpoints where they just have their mutts scratch and sniff
Northern VA? If they're looking for alcohol, go to Franklin Co. VA. That's where ALL the good shine comes from.
Bill
Cosmoline
Member
HEAR THIS AND LEARN:
When any LEO asks you if it's OK to search you say the following:
"NO"
No more, no less. No expression. No apologies. No justification. No chit-chat. Just "NO." If they feel there is reasonable suspicion, they will search anyway. Answering "NO" does not give them reasonable suspicion. But if you answer "YES" you have waived any objections to the search forever. If they screw up the search and find something to hang you, their case will dissolve if you said "NO".
These people are NOT your friends, and if they're asking to search your vehicle it means they want to put YOUR behind in prison. No if, ands or buts. No exceptions. That is why they search. Any other reason they give you is BRAVO SIERRA. While you are not allowed to lie to them, THEY ARE ALLOWED TO LIE TO YOU! Never, ever forget this people.
JUST SAY NO.
If you fail to heed this advice, you may well end up one of millions who have been jailed or put away because they willingly allowed a search.
PS--the general rule on ANY stop is to keep conversation to an absolute minimum. They are friendly and chit-chatty because people hang themselves when they start talking. Also, a lack of anything but "yes" and "no" answers makes it damn difficult for them to justify further investigation. They WANT you to open up to them and start talking. And it ain't for your good health.
When any LEO asks you if it's OK to search you say the following:
"NO"
No more, no less. No expression. No apologies. No justification. No chit-chat. Just "NO." If they feel there is reasonable suspicion, they will search anyway. Answering "NO" does not give them reasonable suspicion. But if you answer "YES" you have waived any objections to the search forever. If they screw up the search and find something to hang you, their case will dissolve if you said "NO".
These people are NOT your friends, and if they're asking to search your vehicle it means they want to put YOUR behind in prison. No if, ands or buts. No exceptions. That is why they search. Any other reason they give you is BRAVO SIERRA. While you are not allowed to lie to them, THEY ARE ALLOWED TO LIE TO YOU! Never, ever forget this people.
JUST SAY NO.
If you fail to heed this advice, you may well end up one of millions who have been jailed or put away because they willingly allowed a search.
PS--the general rule on ANY stop is to keep conversation to an absolute minimum. They are friendly and chit-chatty because people hang themselves when they start talking. Also, a lack of anything but "yes" and "no" answers makes it damn difficult for them to justify further investigation. They WANT you to open up to them and start talking. And it ain't for your good health.
rayra
member
I would have said 'I've got nothing to hide, think this is a no-cause stop and and refuse your request to search. I'll willingly comply with your Orders, and if you search me anyway, I'm going to sue you and your department for harassment'.
and a shout out to the Officer Friendly's awesome technique in placing himself within arm-wrestling distance of you. Ready to interfere with any surprise actions on your part, while his cohorts descend.
and a shout out to the Officer Friendly's awesome technique in placing himself within arm-wrestling distance of you. Ready to interfere with any surprise actions on your part, while his cohorts descend.
rayra
member
and btw, sure wish there was a way to confirm stories like this. one of the anonying things about the Internet - Fact or Fiction, so hard to tell.
dog3
Member
--WvaBill,
Do I know you?
And, they have decent shine out by Gore too, but the best comes from
Tucker Co, WV, I don't care what anyone says.
--rayra;
If you don't believe it, just take it as a hypothetical. Read the post as if
it were written, "What if I was driving down the road last saturday".
It's just the internet. I take most of it with a healthy dose of 'salt'. But
I also try to be respectful and apply my own life experience to scenarios
that otherfolks lay out for comment.
Do I know you?
And, they have decent shine out by Gore too, but the best comes from
Tucker Co, WV, I don't care what anyone says.
--rayra;
If you don't believe it, just take it as a hypothetical. Read the post as if
it were written, "What if I was driving down the road last saturday".
It's just the internet. I take most of it with a healthy dose of 'salt'. But
I also try to be respectful and apply my own life experience to scenarios
that otherfolks lay out for comment.
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WvaBill
Member
dog3--
I don't think?? Greenbrier Co.
Closest thing to that that happened to me was several years ago in Pocahontas Co., WV. I came to a yield sign and saw a big line of cars led by a vehicle w/ MD plates. Cruiser in the line. Not wanting to be behind slow vehicles I drove through the Yield sign. Saw the Cruiser pull out of line and was off the road and stopped before the Blues came on. Big ole Deputy with very dark glasses(at least no "mirrors").
Deputy: License, Reg, Ins, please.
Me: Yessir.
D:Why didn't you stop back there?
M: There was no stop sign.
D: Didn't you see the cars?
M: Yessir, they weren't in the intersection.
D: (Changing subject)Why is the address different on DL and DMV registration.
M: Just moved. Bank has title with old address. Can't change registration w/o title change.
D: (Pondering) Do you come through here often(little bells: Will citizen challenge "failure to yield?")
M: (With sincerity) Only two or three time a month.
D: Well, you be careful.(Handing back papers; having never taken off glasses)
M: Yessir. Thank you.
To this day I believe had I told him "I don't get by this way often," I would have made a special trip or two to fight a "failure to yield" or "improper registration" summons.
I don't think?? Greenbrier Co.
Closest thing to that that happened to me was several years ago in Pocahontas Co., WV. I came to a yield sign and saw a big line of cars led by a vehicle w/ MD plates. Cruiser in the line. Not wanting to be behind slow vehicles I drove through the Yield sign. Saw the Cruiser pull out of line and was off the road and stopped before the Blues came on. Big ole Deputy with very dark glasses(at least no "mirrors").
Deputy: License, Reg, Ins, please.
Me: Yessir.
D:Why didn't you stop back there?
M: There was no stop sign.
D: Didn't you see the cars?
M: Yessir, they weren't in the intersection.
D: (Changing subject)Why is the address different on DL and DMV registration.
M: Just moved. Bank has title with old address. Can't change registration w/o title change.
D: (Pondering) Do you come through here often(little bells: Will citizen challenge "failure to yield?")
M: (With sincerity) Only two or three time a month.
D: Well, you be careful.(Handing back papers; having never taken off glasses)
M: Yessir. Thank you.
To this day I believe had I told him "I don't get by this way often," I would have made a special trip or two to fight a "failure to yield" or "improper registration" summons.
Ryder
Member
Balog:
Probably for the same reason that the first words out of his mouth were"where are your guns?" instead of "drivers license and insurance papers please". I was parked at a dead end street about to go hunting. Camoflage field jacket, orange hat, rubber boots up to my knees, and a hunting license on my back. The real kicker is that the "NO PARKING" signs didn't go up until a week after I testified that they did not exist. In other words that was the probable cause he dreamed up after the fact.
Apologies for the delayed reply.
Probably for the same reason that the first words out of his mouth were"where are your guns?" instead of "drivers license and insurance papers please". I was parked at a dead end street about to go hunting. Camoflage field jacket, orange hat, rubber boots up to my knees, and a hunting license on my back. The real kicker is that the "NO PARKING" signs didn't go up until a week after I testified that they did not exist. In other words that was the probable cause he dreamed up after the fact.
Apologies for the delayed reply.
Martin2
Member
Warrantless house searches are becoming more popular here lately. We are doing our best to inform the public that without a warrant you are more than entitled to refuse a search.
With a police force of about 110,000 and over six thousand of them on suspension for illegal activities ranging from Cash in transit heists, syndicate car theft, armed robbery, rape and suchlike, we don't advise allowing that ilk to freely come into your abode, check out not only all your weapons and licences but also make a note of all your security arrangements as well.
Even if the guys doing the search are honest, you just don't know who else has access to that info.
Not so recently, we heard that the "Gunfree" clowns were allowed access to the police computer system, they managed to lose 10% of the data on it. Not so bad you might think but where was it lost to?
The cops are also using this massive data loss to harrass us here with the new gunlaws and impossible registration details. How'd you guys like your neighbours being asked if they think you're fit to posess?
Go well.
With a police force of about 110,000 and over six thousand of them on suspension for illegal activities ranging from Cash in transit heists, syndicate car theft, armed robbery, rape and suchlike, we don't advise allowing that ilk to freely come into your abode, check out not only all your weapons and licences but also make a note of all your security arrangements as well.
Even if the guys doing the search are honest, you just don't know who else has access to that info.
Not so recently, we heard that the "Gunfree" clowns were allowed access to the police computer system, they managed to lose 10% of the data on it. Not so bad you might think but where was it lost to?
The cops are also using this massive data loss to harrass us here with the new gunlaws and impossible registration details. How'd you guys like your neighbours being asked if they think you're fit to posess?
Go well.
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