What could cause a bullet to land about 2 feet high in 500 m?

[thump_rrr]

TLDR: one bullet went at least 24” higher than the rest at 500M.
Trying to figure out why

I was at a precision rifle clinic/competition this weekend. During the competition at the 500 m line I fired my two sighters which were about 12cm left from the V-bull.
The scoring is 4,5, V-bull

It is called a V-bull because the Roman numeral for 5 is a V just like the X-ring gets it’s name from the Roman numeral for 10.

We were shooting on a Canadian military base shooting at a NATO figure 11 target where the V-bull is 5.5 cm wide by 8.5 cm high.
After each shot the target board is lowered by the other squad working in the rifle butts.
A 3” round orange indicator is placed in the bullet hole and a 6” marker is placed on the edge of the target board for value.
Depending on the location of the marker it tells you if you hit the 4,5, or V-bull.

I made a correction in windage and fired my first of 10 shots for score.
It was slightly off of the bull to the left but scored a 5.
I fired the second shot and there was no hit.
The target board is 4’x4’.
I requested a second check for a hit and it came back as no hit.
I send another one down range and it is scored as a hit slightly to the left of the bull again.
The remaining shot were all grouped close to the V-bull. That missed shot got into my head and I didn’t shoot the rest of that string all that well.
I ended up in 6th overall.
My partner and I tied for 3rd but way back from the first 2 pairs.

After the match I spoke with the guy on the other squad and he said that the missing round was heard overhead and made a dirt splash but went over top of the target. That would mean that it was at least 24” higher than the center of the target.
Other than shooter error or a much higher powder charge what could cause 1 bullet to be that far off.

I was shooting 6.5 CM 40.2gr of H4350 with 140gr ELD-M with a CCI BR-4 in a Federal case.
Average velocity was 2787 and all my come ups were spot on.
ES was 15 I was in the middle of a very flat and wide node and I was using my AutoTricklerV4.
I didn’t notice any additional recoil. I stayed on target with my scope till bullet impact.
Could it have been caused by neck tension or bullet setback or something?

 

[AJC1]

That big of a miss in another wise successful string is unlikely from most things. I don't believe you could squeeze bc or bullet weight difference for that much change in a positive high situation. If you run the calculations the pressure would be catastrophic to get velosity that high for a 2 foot miss high. I don't think there is an ammunition explanation for a 2 foot shift high.

 

[thump_rrr]

That big of a miss in another wise successful string is unlikely from most things. I don't believe you could squeeze bc or bullet weight difference for that much change in a positive high situation. If you run the calculations the pressure would be catastrophic to get velosity that high for a 2 foot miss high. I don't think there is an ammunition explanation for a 2 foot shift high.

If I thought that I pulled the shot it would have been easier to accept.
Forget about it and move on.

 

[Soupy44]

Chalk it up to something strange an absurd since it's only happened once and it was extreme:

- Bounced off a cloaked ship
- You shot the wings off a fly at 5y but it altered the trajectory
- A freak upward microburst
- Jacketed bullet wasn't completely full of lead

#2 is my favorite.

Get back to us if it happens 2-3 more times.

 

[Thomasss]

How well were the cases resized? I shoot 30.06 and on occasion I would get a tight fitting lock down on a cartridge as the bolt closes. If I do, it will always shoot high. The problem as explained by a Hornady Technician is called "rebound". For reasons unknown to me, range brass will sometimes not fully resize a full length case. If caught early, I need to just run it through the sizer again. If not, a resulting the case will chamber and go into battery, but I can feel a "tightness" or a "binding" as the bolt closes. Two years ago I got a Lyman go/ no go gauge and now I "ka plunk" all I want in front of my reloading press. So far, no more tightness and no more high flyers.

 

[thump_rrr]

How well were the cases resized? I shoot 30.06 and on occasion I would get a tight fitting lock down on a cartridge as the bolt closes. If I do, it will always shoot high. The problem as explained by a Hornady Technician is called "rebound". For reasons unknown to me, range brass will sometimes not fully resize a full length case. If caught early, I need to just run it through the sizer again. If not, a resulting the case will chamber and go into battery, but I can feel a "tightness" or a "binding" as the bolt closes. Two years ago I got a Lyman go/ no go gauge and now I "ka plunk" all I want in front of my reloading press. So far, no more tightness and no more high flyers.

All the brass was fire formed, decapped, wet tumbled in SS pins, annealed with a Giraud annealer, lubricated, shoulder pushed back 0.002" with a Redding body die, size the neck with a Redding neck bushing die, clean lube off with 99% isopropyl alcohol, chamfer and deburr, no trimming required.
Primed and charged with an AutoTrickler V4.Accurate to +/- 0.02gr
This last lot of Hornady ELD-M's had a greater weight variation than older lots.
The lightest was 139.64gr with the heaviest being 140.42gr.
I weight sorted them into 0.2gr lots. The outliers are used for foulers or to check the alignment of the LabRadar.

This was the ladder test which I used to decide to go with 40.2gr

 

[eddiememphis]

Canada

 

[Bronco72]

It might of hit something between the muzzle and the target ????
Was on the 600 yd. line spotting and scoring for the shooter and a bird about 300 yds. flew from right to left and only made it half way.

 

[Slamfire]

Sometimes strange things happen that are beyond our understanding. I was at CMP Talladega shooting my Ruger #1 in 30-06 keeping all shots in the nine and ten ring. Had a misfire, the primer had the firing pin indentation. I rechambered that round and it went in the eight ring at 12 OC. No idea why that happened. Could have been me pushing on the buttstock, or something else.

You do learn in Smallbore Prone that moving up and down on the stock moves the point of impact up and down. And that moving the buttplate in and out on the shoulder moves the point of impact left and right. You see these things when shooting a 22lr and not necessarily with centerfire. Because the recoil and blast from a centerfire masks positional errors, and flinches. Stockweld is extremely important and must be paid attention to each and every shot.

 

[Varminterror]

Jacket failure. 140 ELD’s.

There’s no velocity shift which is going to push your shot 2ft high at only 500yrds. It either skipped off of something or the jacket failed.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Solar flares caused a spike in the flux capacitor.

 

[ms6852]

Check ring mounts and make sure they are not loose. Another possibility is that the crosshairs came loose if they are not etched. Do a box test to ensure scope is working properly. Do a tall target test and see how it tracks. Many prefer to use a 36" target at 100 yards because if you are using a mil scope it requires 10 mils and 36 moa for a moa scope at 100 yards. If you have not done one here is a link to a good article.
https://gundigest.com/gear-ammo/optics/why-its-crucial-to-test-the-tracking-of-your-riflescope

 

[thump_rrr]

Check ring mounts and make sure they are not loose. Another possibility is that the crosshairs came loose if they are not etched. Do a box test to ensure scope is working properly. Do a tall target test and see how it tracks. Many prefer to use a 36" target at 100 yards because if you are using a mil scope it requires 10 mils and 36 moa for a moa scope at 100 yards. If you have not done one here is a link to a good article.
https://gundigest.com/gear-ammo/optics/why-its-crucial-to-test-the-tracking-of-your-riflescope

The base and rings are properly torqued and scope tracks perfectly.
A tall target test was done a little while back when the barrel was replaced and the scope was mounted
A mechanical failure would not have the next round and subsequent rounds going right back to where the first round landed

 

[Walkalong]

Bad bullet, hit a bug, but I like the cloaked ship option.

 

[JCSC]

Jacket failure. 140 ELD’s.

There’s no velocity shift which is going to push your shot 2ft high at only 500yrds. It either skipped off of something or the jacket failed.

I had never thought about a bullet having a jacket failure, but those ELDs are paper thin.

 

[Thomasss]

Sometimes strange things happen that are beyond our understanding.

You didn't take the Coriolis effect into account on that shot. lol Oh, sorry that only occurs playing 8-ball on a pool table.
Outside of the joke, I've had lots of problems with ELD bullets due to their extremely soft outer copper shell. I'm looking for a different bullet to use. I personally think Hornady introduced that bullet too soon. A lot of reloaders have complained about that bullet before ever firing a shot. Maybe the weight difference is Hornady's discovery of a potential problem and they are now trying to update the bullet.

 

[jmorris]

I had never thought about a bullet having a jacket failure, but those ELDs are paper thin.

Decades ago when .223’s were 1:12/14 because that’s what worked in .222 it was more common. When one fired those old thin jacket bullets in fast twist AR’s, the centrifugal force was great enough they came apart upon exit of the barrel.

Not in a 2ft high at 500 kind of way but more like, it ceased to exist. If you moved a backer close enough to the bore you could see the spray though.

 

[JFrank]

I’m not familiar with those bullets but If the jacket did fail, why would the core continue to elevate rather than scatter ?

 

[AJC1]

I’m not familiar with those bullets but If the jacket did fail, why would the core continue to elevate rather than scatter ?

The guy in the pit guessed so I don't think that is a dependable data point... did not impact the target is probably a better data point.

 

[JFrank]

The guy in the pit guessed so I don't think that is a dependable data point... did not impact the target is probably a better data point.

I don’t follow what you’re saying. We know bullets break up and fragment when ran too fast for example but I can’t picture a jacket peeling or dropping off like a second stage rocket and gaining enough speed to impact that far above above the target.

 

[thump_rrr]

The guy in the pit guessed so I don't think that is a dependable data point... did not impact the target is probably a better data point.

People are shooting everything from .223 to .338LM
There are 2 guys in the butts at every position.
I know the guys that were tending our target.
They’re experienced shooters that we’ve shot with before.
One guy keeps a hand on the metal frame of the target board to feel the hit and the other looks out the rear facing window to see the dirt splash.
When a dirt splash is seen the lane number is called out to lower the board and indicate the hit.
Usually you get 2-3 people calling out the lane number due to the adjacent lanes.
With .223 you can’t feel the hit on the target board so you rely on the other guy seeing the dirt splash and calling the lane number.

The cloaked ship theory is sounding better and better even though our government is more known for buying out of date diesel submarines.

 

[Slamfire]

One other guess, the bullet tumbled.

Stable at 300 yards



all over the target at 600 yards




stable at 300 yards



maybe tumbling at 600 with those wide shots. You would think, at the string velocities I recorded when shooting these, they would not tumble. More on that next.




This was a shocker. The 190 SMK is a "well characterized" match bullet.

stable at 300 yards. The actual velocities during the string are recorded in the picture.



tumbling at 600 yards






Before going to the range I talked to Sierra, and the ballistic expert recommended velocities in line with my reloads. The reason was, this bullet was supposed to be at 1200 fps at 600 yards, and therefore would be stable. Well something happened on the way to downtown targetville. These bullets must have dropped below super sonic, and then went unstable. Not all bullets do that, some are quite stable at sub sonic.

Same rifle, different bullet, a lot slower.




this is a good 308 bullet



The only way to find out if your bullet is unstable at distance, is to shoot at distance. I do not fully trust "ballistic coefficients" as I believe they are wildly optimistic to boost sales. Also, bullet makers have 300 yard wind tunnels, they make assumptions on what the bullet is doing further downrange. I am very sure no bullet maker exhaustively tests bullets at distance at various velocities. They don't need to sell bullets, influencers fill in the blanks with huzzahs!

 

[AJC1]

I don’t follow what you’re saying. We know bullets break up and fragment when ran too fast for example but I can’t picture a jacket peeling or dropping off like a second stage rocket and gaining enough speed to impact that far above above the target.

Exactly. An impact is a reliable data point. A dirt splash off target I don't consider a reliable data point. Was it two foot high and one foot left or two foot left. As a point of analysis a miss is a better call than guessing a point of impact. The bullet coming apart is probably the best answer in circulation. If that is the final conclusion the impacting high or left right is not needed to support that answer.

 

[Slamfire]

Exactly. An impact is a reliable data point. A dirt splash off target I don't consider a reliable data point. Was it two foot high and one foot left or two foot left. As a point of analysis a miss is a better call than guessing a point of impact. The bullet coming apart is probably the best answer in circulation. If that is the final conclusion the impacting high or left right is not needed to support that answer.

I have been in the pits when a shooter used 223 bullets that all exploded in the air. None of them hit the target.

Lets say the bullet core had a void. Voids happen



Voids happen in even good bullets, I am sure they happen more in cheap bullets. And something else, where is that center of gravity? We shooters do not have a way to measure whether the center of gravity is on the axis of rotation. If the jacket thickness is not uniform, if the core is not perfectly made, with perfect weight distribution, the bullet is going to wobble like a poorly thrown forward pass. This may not be noticeable out to 300 yards, but it sure will be noticeable the further the target is.

We just assume the bullets we buy are good. A club member purchased a 55 gallon drum of 168 SMK seconds. I purchased thousands from him. I weighed them all and sorted them by five grain increments. There were lots of times I found very light bullets, and very heavy bullets. These cheapo bullets shot well, and I was shooting them in service rifles, so who knows if flyers were due to me, or the bullet. I would say, 99% of my flyers were due to me. It was not until I shot Smallbore Prone and began sorting out my positional errors that I began to trust that the wild shots were not necessarily due to me. When the trigger breaks, the crosshairs are in the X ring, and yet I see the impact in the 9 ring, that's when I figured out there were real differences between match 22lr and over the counter.



A Smallbore National Champion I know, was pointing out SK STD Plus drop outs in the ten/X rings. He is a much harder holder than I and sees bullet movement with the cheaper match ammunition down at a level that is all noise to me.

 

[sfl_gunner]

I've witnessed similar things. Usually it is a result of "blowing up" the bullet or jacket separation. Not exceedingly which is why some people I know who push their loads hard don't like to use Hornady.

Important note here, I have nothing against Hornady. But I've seen this happen multiple times.