What good is a .40S&W round for? compromise caliber?

[444]

I have always viewed the .40 S&W cartridge to be neither fish or fowl.
I never understood why it was developed. I don't see where it does anything remarkable. It does one thing slightly better than the 9mm but has drawback in other areas. It does one thing better than the .45 ACP but has drawbacks in other areas.
There is nothing wrong with this cartridge. It works well enough. I just never understood why it came to be in the beginning.

 

[ExtremeDooty]

I bought my XD-40 because it was a compromise between the 9mm and the 45. All the ballistic reports I read were good, a compromise between velocity and weight. I could put the max number of rounds in a handgun that felt good to me.

 

[TheDutchman]

The .40 cal round is a good one. I know of 3 one stop shot from a .40cal, and one 6 shot stop with 9mm all center mass. Which the BG return 6 .357 mags rounds at officer and walked back inside his house reload and then collapsed. The department no longer allows the officers to carry 9mm

 

[Harold Mayo]

<sigh>

Yeah, yeah...and there are instances where a guy takes seven rounds of .45 ACP ball in the chest and walks under his own power into the ER, too.

A handgun caliber is a handgun caliber.:banghead:

I must say, once again, to look outside of your box and see how many people in the rest of the world use anything but 9mm.

 

[lbmii]

The 40 is better compared to the 357 revolver round than the 9 mm or 45.

40 135 grain = 1325 fps

357 130 grain = 1300 fps

40 155 grain = 1205 fps

357 158 grain = 1235 fps

40 180 grain = 1050 fps

357 180 grain = 1145 fps (but this is with an 8" barrel)

The 40 is wider than the 357.

The 357 was the best out there when revolvers were the majority. The 40 is totally comparable to the 357.

The 357 and the 40 are the best out there in common use.

 

[MJRW]

I don't think there is anything ballistically wrong with the .40. I just hate the way it feels. It is a snappy lil' thing. I find it more unpleasant than any other .44 and under handgun round.

 

[bountyhunter]

So what good is the .40S&W, if it's just another caliber to go the way of the 10mm and 41mag? It's a compromised design, and as such it doesn't have the hicap value of 9mm, or the big hole the venerable .45acp generates.

What you call a "comprimise" design, an engineer would call an "optimized" design because it greatly increases hitting power over 9mm and has less weight and higher mag capacity compared to the .45.

FWIW: I have seen .40 defense loads with energy ratings of about 460 ft-lbs muzzle energy which is almost identical to the best .45 defense loads (and actually superior to many .45 defense loads). Bottom line is that the .40 is not going away for a multitude of reasons, one being it is the perfect choice for major power factor in comp shooting. LE's are re-arming to .40 in droves. The military won't because their standard sidearm (the Beretta 92FS) is a very reliable design in 9mm, and a very iffy design in .40. It would not stand up to the kind of pounding it would get for very long IMO.

 

[bountyhunter]

I have always viewed the .40 S&W cartridge to be neither fish or fowl.
I never understood why it was developed.

Because the FBI kept getting outgunned by bad guys.... remember the Miami shootout. The word on 9mm hits: "The bad guys were dying, they just weren't dying fast enough." That says it all. The FBI oversaw the development of the 10mm which was unsatisfactory for many reasons. The .40SW spun from the 10mm and has been very successful.

 

[Sean Smith]

What you call a "comprimise" design, an engineer would call an "optimized" design because it greatly increases hitting power over 9mm and has less weight and higher mag capacity compared to the .45.

FWIW: I have seen .40 defense loads with energy ratings of about 460 ft-lbs muzzle energy which is almost identical to the best .45 defense loads (and actually superior to many .45 defense loads).

"Greatly increases hitting power"? Based on WHAT, exactly?

Winchester Ranger-T 9mm 127gr +P+ @ 1,250 ft/sec = 450 ft-lbs.

Must be getting alot for that 10 ft-lb and 0.045" difference.

 

[ny32182]

.40 defensive loads are rated up to 580 ft/lb from the factory (with the good old 155gr Gold Dots, not some super light 90 grain bullet, either). Even normal 1200fps loads are very close to 500 ft/lb.

This is pretty much as hot or hotter than the best .45. The .40 has more mag capacity, costs less to practice with, is available in a larger number of platforms, and is more powerful than the 9mm to make people who think it matters happy.

Thats why .40.

 

[bountyhunter]

"Greatly increases hitting power"? Based on WHAT, exactly?

Winchester Ranger-T 9mm 127gr +P+ @ 1,250 ft/sec = 450 ft-lbs.

Must be getting alot for that 10 ft-lb and 0.045" difference. .

Ask the manufacturer of that 9mm gun about the warranty if you shoot +p+ out of it. For the record, +p+ ammo is extremely dangerous because it has no official SAMMI standard spec for internal case pressure. But, it's your hand.

Obviously you can theoretically load up a 9mm round to insane levels. Soem guys are even loading them up to major power factor. My point was that the .40SW round gives much higher muzzle energy when loaded to case pressures that most sane people would be comfortable in shooting. Most 9mm guns are not designed to take that kind of pounding.

 

[halvey]

the vast majority of brass I see is .40. That means:
1) people who shoot .40 don't pick up their brass, but everyone else does.
2) .40 is popular, at least in my neck of the woods.

 

[Mairsil]

40 135 grain = 1325 fps

357 130 grain = 1300 fps

40 155 grain = 1205 fps

357 158 grain = 1235 fps

40 180 grain = 1050 fps

357 180 grain = 1145 fps (but this is with an 8" barrel)

That's some pretty hot .40 (pretty much the max in my load manuals), while the .357 can load a couple hundred fps more easily. The 180 grain .357, for example, can easily make 1400 fps from that 8" barrel. I don't see the .40 do that.

The 10mm about matches the .357 mag (180gr @ 1300 fps from a 5.5" G20), but the .40 never makes that.

Not that I think there's anything wrong with the .40, but it's straining it's limits at speeds the .357 mag doesn't have to break sweat for.

 

[No4Mk1*]

Since we come in different sizes, skill levels, and salaries I'm glad our ammo comes in different sizes, power levels, and cost so we can select what is best for ourselves. A double stack pistol shooting 9x19 is just right for me, so if you were me you should use 9mm. Since you are not me, you should select the best round considering power, recoil, size, price, and platform that works for you. Since .40 IS different, it is good for some, just not for me.

 

[lbmii]

The 40 S&W is a high power, high pressure magnum round. It packs a lot of power in a small package. The reason the 40 S&W was not called a magnum round was for political reasons. Police departments did not want juries, grand juries, the press, local politicians, and local activists associating the evil word MAGNUM with the police carry round. “So Officer Smith please tell the members of the Jury why you felt it was necessary to use your 40 S&W Auto (turning to the jury and dramatically raising his voice) MAGNUM on my client Mr. Krackhead?â€

The 40 S&W is an exceptional round; a balance between power, controllability, capacity, diameter, weight, and velocity.

 

[Greg45]

Count me among the fans of the .40. I can't imagine a better weapon than my P229 stoked with 11 rounds of 155 or 165 gr. Gold dots.

Yes the .45 is my first love, but where you can you find a 45 in this small of a package and this capacity?

Yes it is a compromise, but so are many other things. So what.

 

[Moonclips]

It is a good compromise. As many have noted, it hits harder than a 9 and contains more capacity than a 45. If you can't have everything in one package, then it is good to compromise, or, as somebody put it, optimize.

If your logic is that we should use the 9 because everybody outside of the U.S. uses it, then we should also forget about football and NBA basketball because soccer is more popular in the rest of the world. Or we should convert to Islam or Hinduism because they're more widespread than Christianity outside of the U.S. Dig?

 

[Smoke]

My .40 is not limited to 10 rounds in the mag. High caps are available.

I bought a .40 mainly because I needed a .40S&W specimen for my collection. (Trying to acquire a 1911 in every chambering)

It's a cheap to shoot, good compromise round, compromise is not a bad thing (at least that's what my wife keeps telling me)


Smoke

 

[Sean Smith]

Ask the manufacturer of that 9mm gun about the warranty if you shoot +p+ out of it. For the record, +p+ ammo is extremely dangerous because it has no official SAMMI standard spec for internal case pressure. But, it's your hand.

Yep, there is that epidemic of one-handed cops from shooting RA9TA and 9BPLE ammo out of their service guns... how did I not notice that?



"Extremely dangerous"? Try knowing something next time. It might help you.

 

[Harold Mayo]

If your logic is that we should use the 9 because everybody outside of the U.S. uses it, the we should also forget about football and NBA basketball because soccer is more popular in the rest of the world.

My logic is NOT that we should use it because everyone outside the US uses it. My logic is that NO ONE else in the whole wide world, even in places where there is fighting ALL THE TIME, sees a need for any handgun caliber (or subgun caliber) larger than 9mm. ONLY in the USA does anyone hold a belief (and that's all it is...a belief) that any handgun cartridge is any better than any other one.

There was no more handgun-heavy army than that of Germany during WWII. Germans are great weapon-makers...always have been and still are today. What cartridge was used in the German handguns then? 9mm. What cartridge is used by the Germans in their own domestic handguns today? 9mm. Other calibers are marketed here but you won't see the German army or police using .45 ACP or .40 S&W handguns.

The logic is not about popularity. It's about proven effectiveness in actual use. Only in US gun shops and gun forums does anyone seem to have any question about the effectiveness of other rounds. You not only missed the point but your own logic is seriously flawed.

 

[gp59]

well gee Harold I guess you kinda missed the point also, who gives a crap what the rest of the world is using. how often are you going to be going some were else in the world and carrying your hand gun? the problem is you have missed one big point when it comes to comparing cal. secs. the barrel length. most ammo makers use a 5" barrel for there 9mm specs. and a 4" barrel for the .40cal specs. so in that respect you get more bang for your buck in a smaller package.

 

[Moonclips]

And you're saying now that the 45ACP and the 40S&W do not have proven effectiveness?...

 

[Harold Mayo]

Who gives a crap? Well...many of the posters hold up LE as an example of what should be used, so I suppose that most of the posters who have mentioned any agency or LE in general care.

Again, it's not a matter of popularity, it's a matter of what is proven.

As for caliber specs? On handgun cartridges, what does it really matter? It's a handgun cartridge. None of them are going to do anything without proper shot placement.

Shot placement matters most, bullet configuration (hp, fmj, tjc, etc.) next. Caliber is a distant third and is actually, at some point, trumped by velocity since this whole argument is not really so much about caliber as it is about sheer bullet size in general.

 

[Harold Mayo]

Not saying that at all, moonclips...don't try to speak for me.

There are many multiples of times more shootings in the world with a 9mm than with a .40 S&W or .45 ACP, both of which are, for all practical purposes, used only in the USA. I don't see any other country in the world having a problem with the 9mm and running to a bigger caliber.:banghead:

 

[Moonclips]

I don't think many in this country have a problem with the 9mm. It's a good and proven round.

But this country being as it is, founded on democratic thinking, with people free to think and analyze and come up with their own conclusions --- people naturally question the status quo. They don't adopt soccer just because most of the outside world plays it. They don't use the 9mm just because the rest of the world uses it. They use it because they believe in it.

But OTOH they also look around and explore and try to see if they can improve on things. And if they decide that for their needs a 45acp or a 40S&W is it, then fine. These rounds are proven, too. And quite a handful of Americans think they offer something more than a 9.

Else, why don't we just eat curry because the 2nd most populous nation relishes this spice?