What gun for rampaging SUV driver?

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hillbilly

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Any thoughts as to what would be a good caliber to carry for such an event?

Of course, in San Francisco, all the guns are banned.


http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/08/29/BAGAEKRCO55.DTL



Up to 14 hurt in SF hit-and-run spree
7 critical; driver believed to have struck, killed a man in Fremont earlier
Jaxon Van Derbeken, Steve Rubenstein and Susan Sward, Chronicle Staff Writers

Tuesday, August 29, 2006

SAN FRANCISCO -- As many as 14 people were injured this afternoon by a motorist who drove around San Francisco deliberately running them down before being arrested by police, who believe the same driver struck and killed a man earlier today in Fremont.

At least one hit-and-run victim remained in critical condition this evening.

Reports of the incidents began pouring in at 12:47 p.m., police said.

Within a half-hour, San Francisco police had cornered and arrested 29-year-old Omeed Aziz Popal, who has addresses in Ceres (Stanislaus County) and Fremont.

Authorities suspect Popal was the same driver who ran over and killed a 54-year-old man in Fremont around noon.

That man, whose name was not immediately released, had been walking in a bicycle lane at Fremont Boulevard near Ferry Lane when he was struck and thrown into a field, where, as of 5:30 p.m., his body remained covered with a tarp.

That crash scene is just blocks from Popal's Fremont address, where he had most recently been living.

San Francisco police spokesman Sgt. Neville Gittens said the attacks in the city occurred at 12 locations over a 20-minute period.

"The hits were intentional,'' he said, noting that police are treating them as assaults.

Gittens had no information about a possible motive.

Popal was arrested after patrol cars boxed in his black Honda SUV, its windshield and right front headlight smashed, outside a Walgreens store on Spruce Street between California and Mayfair in the Laurel Heights area.

A dental office manager, who identified herself only as Kira, watched from a second-floor window as police dragged the driver out of his vehicle.

"He was absolutely indifferent, no fear, no expression,'' she said. "He was like a zombie.''

Architect Jeremy Warms also saw police pull Popal out of the SUV and sit him down on the curb.

"He looked calm and pretty clean-cut, like a normal guy,'' Warms said. "He sat on the pavement for a good 25 minutes. I don't think anyone said anything to him. They put him in a police car and took him away.''

This evening, it was unclear exactly how many people had been injured, and in what order the incidents occurred. The police reported the following injuries:

-- Two people, one of them a child, were seriously injured on the 3500 block of California Street in Laurel Heights.

-- Three people were hit at California and Fillmore streets. Witnesses said they included a man with a broken hip and a woman with a gashed head.

-- Two people were seriously hurt at Bush and Pierce streets.

-- One person was seriously injured at Bush and Buchanan streets.

-- One person suffered minor injuries in an incident at 1850 Fillmore St.

-- Two other people suffered minor injuries when they were hit at Pine at Divisadero streets.

-- Two people were hit and suffered minor injuries at Divisadero and Bush streets.

"It was like 'Death Race 2000,' " firefighter Danny Bright said at California and Fillmore streets as an ambulance stood nearby. "Guys were walking down the sidewalk, and the guy just came up and ran them over. The guy went crazy."

Mayor Gavin Newsom visited five of the victims at San Francisco General Hospital.

"This was so senseless and inexplicable,'' the mayor said afterward.

One man he visited, who identified himself as Jesse, said as he was walking out of the hospital, "The car came after me. I'm lucky to be alive. Life is good.''

Of the other six victims taken to S.F. General, who ranged in age from 18 to 84, four were scheduled to be discharged later in the day, and one was in critical condition in the intensive care unit, said Eileen Shields, spokeswoman for the city Public Health Department.

Three other victims were taken to St. Francis Hospital, one to Kaiser and two to California Pacific Medical Center, authorities said.

Emanule Gowan, 50, said he had been standing on his Steiner Street doorstep around 1 p.m. when an SUV roared by, driving the wrong way down Bush Street, and hit an elderly man in the crosswalk.

"The man must have gone up in the air about 8 feet and landed on the SUV's windshield,'' Gowan said. "He slid off the windshield, and the SUV rolled right over him and took off, leaving the man hollering on the ground.''

After running a stop sign and hitting another pedestrian in a crosswalk on Sutter Street, the driver headed off down Steiner, Gowan said.

"I looked right at him, and he looked at me as he busted down the street," Gowan said. "He was very calm.''

Other witnesses described the SUV as jumping the sidewalk in apparent pursuit of pedestrians.

Jackie Le, owner of J.T. Nails on Fillmore Street, said she was filing a customer's nails around 12:50 p.m. when the woman started screaming, "Oh my God, an SUV on the sidewalk -- it hit a woman on the sidewalk.''

Linda Tuttle, a stylist at a beauty salon on Fillmore between Bush and Sutter, said she saw the driver heading down the sidewalk, sitting close to the steering wheel, an angry look on his face.

Larry Jackson saw the vehicle driving the right direction on Bush Street, slowing at the intersection of Pierce Street as a woman walked in the crosswalk.

"He let her walk by till she got in front of him, and he just punched it," Jackson said. He attended to the woman and, a short time later, the driver roared down Bush in the wrong direction.

The SUV struck two people in front of the Jewish Community Center of San Francisco on California Street, a few blocks from where the rampage ended.

Blood covered the sidewalk in front of the center's gift store entrance, and 50 feet farther down the sidewalk lay a mangled bicycle.

Security cameras in front of the center captured images of the incident, which happened at 1:12 p.m., according to Aaron Rosenthal, spokesman for the community center.

One victim, Pedro Aglugov, 70, was sitting at a table at a sidewalk cafe at California and Fillmore with his head bandaged with gauze, holding an ice pack to one elbow.

"He was going real fast," Aglugov said of the driver. "I was lucky I wasn't hurt more.''

Eliseo Billones Jr., 24, a canvasser for Greenpeace, had been standing on the corner when Aglugov was hit.

"He was going berserk," Billones said of the driver. "It was a red light, and he just ran the red light. I saw him (Aglugov) hit the corner of the bumper and tumble.''

Barclay Lynn, 39, of San Francisco, said she and a friend had been traveling east on Bush when they noticed a black SUV driving away and saw that a motorcyclist had been hit.

"The motorcyclist stood in the intersection trying to signal the driver to stop,'' Lynn said. The SUV then "went speeding in reverse on Bush heading west, weaving in and out of traffic. The whole right side of his SUV was smashed in.''

At Frankie's Bohemian Cafe at Divisadero and Pine, a man named William, who asked that his last name not be used, said he had been walking south on Divisadero when "we heard the thump, turned around, saw bodies flying.''

The driver went down Pine and Bush, "stood on the gas," then a couple of minutes later "came flying up through the bus lane" headed north on Divisadero.

Another man at the cafe, Max Bran, said, "We thought he was going to stop and give up, but instead he just stepped on the gas. It didn't matter, regardless of the lights.''

Bran said he saw a woman knocked down. "She was just crossing the street, just crossing the street," he said. "In fact, I had just crossed the street.''

Authorities suspect that the SUV is the same one that struck and killed a pedestrian in Fremont earlier today.

That victim had been walking north on Fremont Boulevard in the bicycle lane when he was struck from behind and knocked several feet into a field, Fremont Officer Alan Zambonin said.

He was pronounced dead at the scene. The black SUV, a Honda described as a Pilot or a CRV, made no attempt to stop or help the victim, police said.

Zambonin estimated the SUV had been traveling as fast as 50 mph and sped away with a blown out windshield and damage to the right front side.

"It's a good possibility (the incidents) are all connected,'' Zambonin said.
 
In my safe, I'd say the best I could do would be my M1A with a fully-loaded magazine....all 20 into the driver's compartment and the grill as fast as I could actually make hits.

But then again, I'm not likely to be walking around downtown with my M1A.

hillbilly
 
Another car would be a better weapon. Honda makes an SUV? Anyway... in handguns, a big magnum or a CZ52. You could hit the guy with a car a lot easier than picking him off with a rifle.
 
"We obviously need to outlaw these dangerous killing machines[SUVs]. People can walk!"


Hey, don't joke about that. This is California. They may do it. Have you heard the governator talk recently. He's moved left of Lenin.
Mauserguy
 
Most any bullet will pierce a radiator.

My conceal piece is loaded with .40 S&W FMJ flat-points, which IMO, work nicely on windshield glass and the rampaging driver behind said glass.

Having an escape path and time to reach solid cover is a good thing.
Having a vehicle to play crashupderby is nice too.
 
Fella's;

I'm with oo7 in my thinking. Any serious carry gun should be able to stop something like that, given good shot placement. Personally, I'd prefer .40 and up for the possibility of having to penetrate a car body. But really, we aren't talking something out of a heavy weapons platoon being necessary.

900F
 
Welcome to islamofascism! This isn't the first driving rampage and it won't be the last. How long ago was that one on the college campus?
"He was absolutely indifferent, no fear, no expression,'' she said. "He was like a zombie.''
I've heard this many times about terrorists. How to you deal with an enemy that WANTS to die? Psyops are out, since the touchy-feely crowd feels it violates their civil rights (oh but it's perfectly ok for our Marines held captive in Camp Pendleton). Go to the middle east and see how far your civil rights get ya. Sorry to rant, this stuff just really ticks me off.
Since I don't walk around with a FAL or a Barrett, I'd have to say take out the tires to destroy the handling and capabilities, do a PIT maneuver if you have a vehicle, and relieve the driver of life.
The worst thing is it's lose-lose. If he runs over people and gets away he wins. If he runs over and gets killed he wins and gets his 72 virgins. If he runs over people and gets wounded and goes to court he wins and gets to make a mockery of how inept our justice system is to deal with someone like this.
 
The ithica Roadblocker was designed for just this instance.

10 Gauge Magnum semi auto.


if I had to have a handgun, I'd go with a cz-52, the traditional overpenetration of that round would help get through the body and engine compartment of the car while still inflicting damage.
 
The engine is an armored target and vulnerable from the top, front and sides, the radiator vulnerable from the front and easily penetrated.

How far would a car travel if the radiator were shot with handgun rounds? Seems to me it would still be operable for 5-10 minutes...

It would take a rifle caliber, or possibly a well placed .357 magnum, to punch through the engine block. If the engine block were damaged, how long would the vehicle continue to operate.

On the other hand the driver compartment is vulnerable from all sides and from above. Any common handgun caliber will penetrate standard factory driver compartment.

I suspect shooting the driver could be the fastest way to stop the threat, but could also increase the threat by having a vehicle running at high speeds and out of control.

On the other hand, the BEST option would likely be to shoot out as many tires as possible. They are exposed and easily visible from all 4 sides. Most any caliber should penetrate them and this would almost immediately immobilize the automobile, or at least slow it dramatically.
 
Run and hide.

I'd focus on finding some cover like a telephone pole, cement planter, low wall, etc. (fire hydrants and mailboxes won't stop much).

Even if you put two in his hat, the SUV won't stop. His foot might fall off of the gas or it might not, but it sure won't be headed for the brakes.

As to trying to kill the car: as I former tow truck driver and shade tree mechanic, I can tell you that the vulnerable parts are small, scattered in hard to shoot spots that vary from model to model. Cars are a lot tougher than one might infer from the fact that they will occasionally just die for no apparent reason.
 
Now now guys, next thing you know, you all will be say'in .45-70 is the end all be all for chipmonks. ( Ok, I did once shoot a groundhog at just a bit over 200 yrds with a .45-70.. but that's a different story.)

Them SUV critters LOOK big, but they really are thin skinned. The insides are kinda "soft". Most .355 bullets and up are ok, but you need to think more "big and slow" then "small and fast".

Most of what you can lug on your hip is gonna be a bit weak for a "heart" shot (the motor). But will work just fine for the left side of that " big eye" on the front of the vechicle (the brain).

Should you get a "side shot" lead a bit less then a fence post, and be well aware of whats beyond the critter, lest you endanger those on the sidewalk.;)

A .38 with Gold dots can bring down one of them SUV critters, but a .45 just seems to be the "Swiss Army Knife" of personal defence.

(No offence to the gent who has in his sig "A 12 GA is the Swiss Army knife of Firearms." I kinda agree with him.)
 
I second the vote for an M1A or similar 7.62 magazine-fed rifle (FAL, CETME, AR-10, etc).
 
leadcounsel:

Punctured Radiator: an engine could easily run for half an hour, more with a small hole. You shouldn't drive you're car with a coolant leak, but you shouldn't run people over either...

Punctured block: if you get lucky and hit the timing gear or cam shaft it might die, otherwise the driver might not even notice. I once drove a car (around the block to win a bet) with a broken rod that had knocked a 2-3" wide hole in the engine block. It ran pretty badly since the piston with the busted rod wasn't moving, but it was tolerable.

I agree that shooting a tire or two out would make the car less dangerous after the drive is dispatched. From personal experiece, I'd say the a flat front is much harder to drive with since the steering becomes unresponsive. This might slow the vehicle down enought to make the driver an easier target.
 
Brought my Marlin .35 Remington out with 200 grainers and set it next to the door. Seen a couple of them SUV's in my neighborhood. Suspicious looking and dirty, unwashed. Kind of a brooding look to them.

They better not act up around here.

Vick
 
As for shooting out tires - wasn't kevlar discovered while making tires? Anybody tried a handgun bullet on a vehicle tire? The whitewalls are supposed to be weaker, they might do.
As for shooting the engine block - those things are massive. I don't see any pistol bullet doing enough damage there to stop the car. The radiator, tires, driver, yes.
 
the news just said

an FBI & a police officer were among the injured.
He is from Afghanistan & they are saying he was mentally disturbed.
 
I once read about a LEO doing a "One-Shot-Stop" on a vechicle. (Can't remember for sure what he was using, but I think it was a .45.) Said LEO fired (Maybe more then one) at the car accelerating away, and ONE round hit the pavement below the car, and bounced up (piercing the plastic flywheel cover) and lodged itself between the starter gear and the flywheel... Instant stop.

Call it what you want.. Bad Guys didn't get away that day.:neener:
 
Yet another Jeep Jihadi.

Or is it Motoring Mujahedeen? Flooring-it Fedayeen? Honda Haji? Speeding (wannabe) Shahid?

Oh, I think a MBR in 30-06 or .308 would be ideal. Otherwise, I'd have to stick with my 1911.
 
I don't really want to inject any levity into the discussion of a tragic event, but did anybody notice the ad that pops up just to the right of the article?
 
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