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What Gun for School Defense?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Hypnogator, Oct 9, 2006.

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Which Gun for School Defense?

  1. High-Powered Rifle (M1A, Marlin Guide Gun, M-40, Etc.)

    9 vote(s)
    3.7%
  2. Intermediate Powered Rifle (5.56MM, 7.62X39mm)

    69 vote(s)
    28.2%
  3. M-1 Carbine in .30 Carbine

    24 vote(s)
    9.8%
  4. Shotgun

    48 vote(s)
    19.6%
  5. Smallbore Rifle in .22 Rimfire

    1 vote(s)
    0.4%
  6. Autoloading Pistol

    52 vote(s)
    21.2%
  7. Revolver

    32 vote(s)
    13.1%
  8. Other/Exotic (Specify)

    10 vote(s)
    4.1%
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  1. Hypnogator

    Hypnogator Member

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    OK, your local school board has voted (with state blessings) to acquire a limited number of firearms for school defense against terrorists/active shooters. Teachers will not be permitted to carry concealed weapons due to security concerns, but a firearm or firearms will be secured in locked containers at several locations in the school with specially trained teachers/administrators carrying keys.

    Because you are a firearms expert, the board has come to you for advice on what kind of firearms to obtain.

    Special considerations: The most feasible scenarios would consist of shots made from 15 - 50' inside classrooms or hallways, but shots could conceivably be required as far as 100 yds on the athletic field.

    Which of the above firearms would you recommend? Why? What caliber? What action type?

    Enjoy!
     
  2. yongxingfreesty

    yongxingfreesty Member

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    anything is better than nothing
     
  3. Geronimo45

    Geronimo45 Member

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    AR 15? Evil black assault rifle. I'd go with a Mini-14, with a red-dot or a scope mounted on him. Wooden rifles don't look so evil to the great unwashed. Ruger would be forced to give high-cap mags.
    Handguns - .38 specials - S&W or Ruger, no preference. For autoloaders... again, I'd love to see a Five-Seven, but they're awfully pricey. Probably something along the lines of a CZ 75 SP-01 - accepts lasergrips, tac. light.

    If you wanted to go really cheap, Mosin-Nagant rifles cut to carbine length, Makarovs, Nagant revolvers, and CZ 52s.
     
  4. xd9fan

    xd9fan Member

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    whatever the general public is wearing in their day to day life. Just let CCW holders take their kids to school and carry on the grounds.

    wow can america overthink an issue......
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2006
  5. Euclidean

    Euclidean Member

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    Interesting scenario. Not the model I'd prefer but interesting scenario nonetheless.

    A strong possibility is Remington 870s. See, any gun that would be used in this way would be everybody's gun and nobody's gun, meaning it would get used by people who didn't particularly care about meticulously maintaining it, so we need to get a specimen that would be an effective firearm, but one that will run when quite dirty and neglected. The police have used them for many years this way.

    Anything that would make a reasonable service weapon for a patrol officer would suffice though, because while it wouldn't be used for police work, it would be just as neglected. Whatever it is should have good armorer support too, and keep in mind once it's bought it MIGHT be replaced in 20 years if you're lucky.

    But realistically it probably would be a pump shotgun, because they are the cheapest thing that meets service criteria. That's the real reason police had them for so many years. Schools would have whatever they could get the cheapest. I personally would purchase one of my own and practice with it constantly.

    Now if I really could pick and the district wasn't half assing it, it'd be some AR15 variant fitted with a tactical light, laser sight, single point sling, and an Eotech with BUIS. It's what I know, and probably the best for the job, with some frangible rounds.
     
  6. RNB65

    RNB65 Member

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    AR15 carbine (16") with a Trijicon Reflex red dot sight. Easy to learn and easy to handle.
     
  7. plexreticle

    plexreticle Member

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  8. Euclidean

    Euclidean Member

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    Anything select fire would not fly.

    Okay first of all this model will never happen. The district's lawyers wouldn't let it.

    Second of all if it did I can promise you that every concern that LE agencies have with regards to liability, the school would have. That means heavy triggers and semiautomatic or manual actions only.

    Third, the odds are pretty good the only persons with the key would be the principal who would be off campus 75% of the time, and the vice principal who would be gone on those occassions the principal was present, and they would both have to use their keys together and enter a 16 digit PIN number and call the police, the school board, and the parents of all 700 children first to get permission.

    Fourth, assuming we overcome that problem, a more logical assumption would be you'd have to pass some kind of qualifier to have a key. Seems logical enough. As someone who'd be interested, the only service firearms I have experience with are the neutered civilian versions of real weapons. I can't buy a full auto version to practice or train with, and I'd have no access to even be trained with a select fire weapon, because I'm not LE or military, no one would even consider training me for any amount of money.

    This is a fun mental excercise.
     
  9. SAG0282

    SAG0282 Member

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    Lots to keep in mind.....like it or not the idea of conspicuoulsly armed LEOs w/ "evil blackness" on hand is pretty unlikely.

    GW/LE ran a thing on SROs a few years back that discussed the G34/G35 (GLOCK) concept with rigorous training for scenarios unique to being an SRO, and I have always liked this concept. The G34/G35s are concealable, as rugged as a Stryker, and in the right hands devastatingly accurate even out to fairly long-distances.
     
  10. Zen21Tao

    Zen21Tao Member

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    An M4 AR15 model is the ideal choice. A rifle or shotgun is almost always a better choice than a handgun. It have a more effective range, is more stable and is more accurate (considering the average firearm user as a base line). Under such conditions I feel a shotgun would not be a good choice do to over penetration and/or too side of a firing pattern. The .223 round is small enough to limit over penetration (such as through walls and doors) but still has the effective range of a rifle.

    Another option could be an M4 AR15 platform in a 9mm carbine.
     
  11. mp510

    mp510 Member

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    Let's see, shooting is going to be very close quarters, probably across a room, or down the hall.

    A rifle would be inappropriate, you don't need the range one gives, even if that weapon is chambered for an intermediate round. Why go with a handgun if concealability is not necesary, and a .22 doesn't offer a stopping power guarantee. Full auto would be unpractical, and could end up with more colateral damage, which is NOT acceptable.

    I would go shotgun. A Mossberg 500 or Remington 870, with Buckshot and slug options would be effective given the range, reliable, robust, easy to train people on, and cost effective- and money is a big deal for schools.
     
  12. OpFlash

    OpFlash Member

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    It would be a close in indoors engagement, I don't see trading shots at 100yds across the athletic field. However in an environment with such a huge chance for collateral damage to innocents you want high accuracy coupled with quick pointing/handling, and I think a AR15 carbine (M4) is just the ticket for that kind of scenario. Doomsday serial killers can well be using body armor as well so you want a rifle caliber, not a pistol, pistol carbine, or buckshot. The 5.56 is a good choice because it won't penetrate more than a pistol bullet through walls like a larger caliber rifle or shotgun slug but will penetrate most body armor.
     
  13. Sheldon J

    Sheldon J Member

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    Don't know who voted for the shotgun but way too much collateral damage there unless you are using slugs or one of the bean bag rounds, but then if the BG were to wear a vest, you whack them with a 12 ga 3" mag slug it would break ribs and likely stop their heart.

    Riffle nope too close of an engagement range here even for a tactical gun it would be tricky unless you are very well trained at say "Gun site"

    Pistol, wheel gun or semi, but not a 9, most encounters would be in the 25-30' range and if after burning them in the vest does not get their attention then while they are off balance a head shot at that range would do it.

    All encounters that I have read about WRT school's and Kids with guns seeking to do harm, and a adult with a gun intervened the kid turned to jelly when confronted with deadly force, so just a show of my be enough. As to the determined deviant... N how do you decide, every scenario would be different

    I know this is cold but the facts and this discussion could save a life.
     
  14. Euclidean

    Euclidean Member

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    Here's something I think really needs to be pointed out here: Why is everyone ruling out long guns based on short range?

    At any range, long or short, I shoot a long gun better than a handgun. I shoot it more accurately and more quickly. Long guns offer superior caliber choices and overall superior capabilities.

    If the idea is there's a lock box on the wall with the emergency gun in it, it darn well better be something with some punch. We want this situation to end quickly and with as few shots as possible fired.
     
  15. geekWithA.45

    geekWithA.45 Moderator Emeritus

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    Intermediate carbine w/ choice of frangibles or hard ammo.
     
  16. High Planes Drifter

    High Planes Drifter Member

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    Autoloading pistol. Something teachers can wear on them while conducting class; and conceal.
     
  17. ronto

    ronto Member

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    Revolver

    So simple even a teacher who probably doesn't like guns anyway can understand how to operate it, plus little chance of malfunction caused by the operator
    or the firearm.
    Spraying the place with 00 buck or automatic pistol or rifle fire would only endanger innocent bystanders.
     
  18. BigO01

    BigO01 Member

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    In a school setting with a bunch of left leaning teachers with next to no training I would go with Marlin lever guns and matching revolvers in .357 magnum .

    Most people have seen more than a few Westerns and old cop shows and can figure out how to load a lever gun and a revolver .

    The .357 is an effective caliber even out of a 4 inch barreled pistol with 125 gr JHP's for short to medium range a 16-20 inch rifle barrel easily extends this to 100-150 yards against humans , which I think is the max we could even begin to hope that a teacher would engage an invading force .
     
  19. Oleg Volk

    Oleg Volk Moderator Emeritus

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    Untrained person cannot operate a lever action effectively, nor shoot a revolver well or reload it.

    Pick something cheap and reliable and insist on training in shooting AND TARGET ID. The likelihood of the perp being visually similar to others in the building would be very high.
     
  20. gego

    gego Member

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    This has already been thought out somewhat, so whatever a SWAT team would use in a similar situation seems most appropriate.
     
  21. MD_Willington

    MD_Willington Member

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    Shotgun, as most people in the town I live in are quite familiar with them...
     
  22. atk

    atk Member

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    There doesn't seem to be much comment about penetrating walls, so far, so I'll just mention it: Whatever firearm is chosen, it better not be capable of penetrating any walls - or even doors - between classrooms. There's way too many non-combatants in the area, and over-penetration is a MASSIVE concern, here. In fact, some schools have multiple floors, so it shouldn't be able to penetrate floors/ceilings, either.

    It should be something that's on the person of the teacher at all times. Long guns are too easy to put down, and would probably get in the way of teaching if they were strapped to the teacher's body. And how does one cover the trigger of a long gun? I've never seen a holster big enough... With hand guns, at least you can put those into a concealment or retention holster, so the kids can't just reach up and pull the trigger.

    If a long gun, is needed, several could be kept around the school, in safes, with teachers having the key(s), for those unusual cases where the long gun is really what's necessary.

    As for training, if the school is going to implement a "bring a gun to school" policy, they can provide training to use firearms, so the revolver vs. semi debate can be resolved through training.
     
  23. crunker

    crunker member

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    Striker-12 or Protecta shotgun, you don't have to worry about it failing to load since it's not an autoloader or semiautomatic.
    That, and an AR-15 pistol. You're ready for when SHTF.
     
  24. Justin

    Justin Moderator Emeritus

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    Yeah, because there's nothing quite like firing a rifle cartridge out of a pistol-length barrel inside a room.
     
  25. AJ Dual

    AJ Dual member

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    I voted for the M1 carbine, because that's the closest to what I would pick in this rather artificial scenario. i.e. Arms locked in "go to" boxes or cabinets.

    Within the confines of the exercise, I would go with a semi-automatic pistol caliber carbine that had the best ergonomics and the simplest manual of arms possible. Something like a Beretta CX4 Storm or even the Hi-Point. Leave it "cruiser ready", safety off, chamber empty. Cock and shoot.

    -Limited overpenetration (loaded with lightweight HP ammunition)
    -Low recoil (than a shotgun or high powered rifle)
    -Low blast (than intermediate cal. or high powered rifle)
    -Stock + sight radius increases hittability over a handgun
    -Moderate capacity (over a shotgun at least)
    -More effective than handguns of the same caliber (Slight FPS increase, plus the ergonomic factors)

    I thought about having a red-dot with either tritium/fiber optic lit Trijicon style, or a battery operated recticle, but with a dead-man switch that would turn it on when pulled out of the cabinet.

    I would also consider putting some kind of recognition device or symbol on the carbine that was kept secret between school administrators and the local police. Something like a blaze orange triangle or plus sign. Just like how US/NATO/Coalition forces put marks and chevron shapes on their tanks…

    If I could change the parameters, I would go with teachers armed with CCW handguns of their choice, as running to the "go to" box is problematic at best, unless so many arms are distributed around the school it's ridiculous. But that's not what the original poster is asking here.
     
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