What if it was you?

[El Tejon]

Seriously, though, what's to be done? The odds of a crackdown on this sort of thing occurring short of a horrific tragedy are virtually nothing.

Tribal, we fight to destroy the laws that give this agency it's presumed power. We fight the administrative code that they draft to give themselves more power.

We fight until the ATF is destroyed.

 

[yokel]

Washington often serves as a trailing indicator of public sentiment on an issue, following action in state capitals or responding belatedly to a growing public outcry.

 

[xjchief]

Not all of us have jobs where you can make a mistake like that and not suffer SERIOUS consequenses like the loss or suspension of a professional license, suspsension of employment or termination, and personal liabitly.

Oops we invaded the wrong home and caused property damage and recklessly endangered lives should at minimum result in firing or suspension without pay for all the agents involved.

Until we start holding our government accountable we can only expect more of the same. :banghead:

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Until we start holding our government accountable we can only expect more of the same.

Yeah, like that's gonna happen!

It'll be like the public schools -- the more they fail, the more money we throw at them, but they resist all attempts to hold them accountable.

 

[Deanimator]

Just like this did not happen in Atlanta

Thanks for saving me the trouble of describing that.

EVERY one of the officers materially involved in that case deserves the death penalty, be it the one(s) who lied to obtain the search warrant, the one(s) who shot her, or the one(s) who planted the drugs in her house after the fact. If not otherwise involved, the one(s) who suborned perjury from the informant to cover the whole thing up deserve at least 25 years in the general population. Kathryn Johnston's family needs to utterly destroy those involved financially, so that even if they DO survive prison, people starving in Darfur will send THEM charity.

Subhuman filth like that disgust me.

 

[Gator]

This is a much bigger problem with federal law enforcement. Local police have to answer to the citizens in their jurisdiction, and the local chief can be more easily replaced than the head of the ATF (about a million times easier!). Of course the bigger the department (Atlanta, Chicago, New York, LA, etc. the less accountability there is.)

There is absolutely NO accountability for federal officers that I can see, yes everyone involved in this raid should be fired, but what will actually happen? There will probably not even be a note in their records. I've written my representatives about cases like this before and received "canned" answers in reply: Thank you for expressing your concern about this important issue....blah, blah. :banghead:

 

[TCB in TN]

Honestly... If this "was me", I doubt I'd have had any time to react anyway.

This was obviously a bad situation, human error. It sounds like the agency is trying to rectify the situation, and it certainly was a big bold mistake.

But, SWAT teams don't come lightly through a door. When they are utilized on warrants it is because of the risks of that warrant (same reason that they use a no-knock, versus the typical knock-and-announce).

Risks? How pray tell do they know that the individual who they are serving a warrent ON is so dangerous when they have not even recon'd the home/business? Just a TINY bit of real work prevents this type of mistake from happening! It is on par with a guy going into surgury for a knee and having a different surgeon performing a hear transplant on him!
Heck even UPS tries to verify the address before delivering a package, why should we expect less from our LEO's?

Typically, yes (to varying degrees). At least in my department, no-knock warrants are used for those situations where it is considered too dangerous to use knock-and-announce tactics. In short, when our SWAT team bursts through the door, they do so because it is too risky for the uniformed officer to try to knock and say "police, we have a warrant... open the door". Some people really are bad folks, and they are already in a position of advantage by being inside of their house. On occasion we have to level the playing field!

Has your department ever SWATTED the wrong address, on one of these raids? IMHO unless you have recon'd the location and know who is there then even a SWAT team would be foolish to perform the raid.

I'm not advocating making a HUGE mistake like these guys did in this story, but it still explains why the so-called "raid" tactics are often appropriate.

IF a real, danger does exist then rather than a swat raid, then how about waiting until the subject exits the residence and picking them up then? In most cases a little more Andy Griffith and a little less GI Joe would seem to be in order.

 

[Guitargod1985]

Give me a break. Another conspiracy theory! I'm not saying that the situation in this story was at all acceptable, but it doesn't mean that the agents/officers in these cases are malicious criminals. They made a BIG mistake, but that doesn't in any way mean they would plant contraband to make you look bad in the press... Again, this was a huge mistake, but don't try to paint this picture of cops automatically being dirty!

Typical cop bashing.

I think you misunderstood me there. I was not saying that this event in particular involved malicious law enforcement officers. What I AM saying is that because nobody happened to be killed this time around, there was no need to make a death look justified by planting "evidence."

In other words, because I would not hesitate to defend my home I would in all likelihood be shot. Then we would get to find out whether someone thinks it would be a good idea to cover up there inadequate information gathering with a bag of weed and a weapons violation.

I was not "cop bashing." One of my best friends is a deputy at a local Sheriff's Office and he is a real stand up guy. For the most part I suspect that officers of the law are much like him in that regard. But he happens to know of a few deputies that occasionally engage in unethical practices. I was simply relaying an observation made in several other cases: that when someone dies because of an erroneous no-knock search, sometimes people cover up.

 

[ProficientRifleman]

just some thoughts

Coloradokevin:

I doubt I'd have had any time to react anyway.

In your case, and also true for most others, that is probably true. However, "Dynamic Entries" can be fought through and resisted. It takes training and focus to do it. The first thing to be aware of is that it CAN happen.

This was obviously a bad situation, human error.

You are correct, Sir. It wasn't a computer which broke the door and fired tear-gas canisters into a residence wherein was sleeping a three year old child.

It sounds like the agency is trying to rectify the situation, and it certainly was a big bold mistake.

By repairing the door? Are ANY of these individuals going to be held legally accountable for breaking and entering and endangering a small child? Hmmmm...

But, SWAT teams don't come lightly through a door. When they are utilized on warrants it is because of the risks of that warrant (same reason that they use a no-knock, versus the typical knock-and-announce).

I second what TCB said. If the subect is THAT dangerous, why not take him down when he leaves the residence? Why not THEN execute the search warrant on the residence? Makes you think...Hmmmmmmm

In short, when our SWAT team bursts through the door, they do so because it is too risky for the uniformed officer to try to knock and say "police, we have a warrant... open the door". Some people really are bad folks, and they are already in a position of advantage by being inside of their house. On occasion we have to level the playing field!

Maybe YOU and your "brother officers" should consider this...

1. You get paid to do the job, if it is too risky, find another line of work.

2. Knock and announce allows the home owner inside to read the warrant and say something like, "Dear black-clad Gentlemen, this isn't the house you're looking for. So-and-so doesn't live here, he lives the next block over. If you read your warrant there, it says 3806 Main St., not 3606 Main St..

3. Bad folks, huh? You don't say...position of advantage...? Maybe wait until he isn't in a position of advantage and take him then... Hmmm? Then execute the search and gather all the evidence from the target house with NO RESISTANCE. But then there would be no NEED for all that paramilitary SWAT gear and cool guy stuff.

Give me a break. Another conspiracy theory!

NO!!! Nothing like the Atlanta case (previously mentioned) has ever happened before!

And it'll never happen again!

but that doesn't in any way mean they would plant contraband to make you look bad in the press...

Read his post again, he was speaking of after the fact, after he had resisted, and after the SWAT team had realized it had made a royal blunder...Do you really think it improbable?

Typical cop bashing.

No, it is not. It is JUSTIFIED criticism.

Crying "Cop Bashing!! Cop Bashing!!" is a broad-brush smear intended to stop a discussion in which you are uncomfortable.

I DO NOT know cops commiting felonies on the job. I don't know cops planting evidence, and I wouldn't begin to cover up for one who was... Yes, police officers are known for looking out for their "brother" officers. But, any cop who does these sort of things is no brother of mine.

KUDOS! Rarely is such a statement made aloud. I pray that you are sincere.

In fact, a couple of guys have been fired from my department within the past two years because other officers found out about illegal things they were doing, and turned them in.

So you know of it happening, but you didn't know THEM personally... I gotcha!

How about this, suppose you know of several Cops who were involved in a bad shoot, you aren't involved in the post-event investigation, but pretty much everyone in your department knows the deal, you become aware of an institutional cover-up. Everyone in your department knows full well it is a white-wash. Would YOU call B.S.? Would YOU resign your position with the department?

If you care to, check out the Congressional hearings in 1995 about the Waco incident . In the hearings, documents were presented in which it was shown that ATF directed it's own agents to STOP the shooting review because they were creating "Brady material". For those unfamiliar with the term, Brady material would tend to exculpate the accused. How many ATF agents resigned in disgust? Just curious.

Wouldn't lie? Wouldn't plant evidence? Never happen, huh....?

Kevin, Don't take this healthy criticism as an indictment of YOU personally, nor of all SWAT team members, nor of Cops generally. This was a royal foul up. You are correct. However, the criticism isn't of all cops and all SWAT team members. The criticism is of the OVER USE of this type of tactic. More importantly, the criticism is of how the screw-ups, in this case ATF agents, never seem to be held accountable for their actions.

You, Kevin, and your fellow Cops can and should help prevent this. Don't cover for them, don't make excuses for them, don't look the other way and whistle when it happens. Advocate for this kind of action to be punished...as it would be for us "mere citizens".

 

[Deanimator]

You, Kevin, and your fellow Cops can and should help prevent this. Don't cover for them, don't make excuses for them, don't look the other way and whistle when it happens. Advocate for this kind of action to be punished...as it would be for us "mere citizens".

You just need to read about the "SOS" scandal in Chicago to see to what extent things are covered up by participants and those with knowledge. A home invasion, burglary and kidnapping ring operated inside the Chicago PD until very recently. In fact, it operated for YEARS. Perjured testimony regarding warrants and searches was offered by multiple officers. Other officers with knowledge kept silent. And strangely, in the midst of literally DOZENS of officers having knowledge of what was going on, Internal Affairs did NOTHING... again for YEARS.

If a particular department doesn't do those things, then I'm very happy. It's simply foolish to claim that it doesn't happen at all, or that those with knowledge act appropriately.

If something of the MASSIVE nature of "SOS" can go on for YEARS, I don't have much confidence in the ability of police departments to monitor themselves.

 

[kentucky bucky]

That is scary because I could see myself shooting an ATF agent due to their mistake. I wonder what would happen then? If I heard someone busting my door down, espesially if awakened in the middle of the night, I would definitely use lethal force against the intruder unless I could ID them in a split second as errant ATF agents, which is highly unlikely.

 

[mccook8]

1. You get paid to do the job, if it is too risky, find another line of work.

Hmmmm.......how much is that WORTH?

How much would YOU insist upon being paid to work as a police officer, and to do the job as YOU believe it should be done, in all aspects?

 

[Sans Authoritas]

Heaven forbid that they just track a (probably statutory) offender and catch him as he's just getting out of his car at work, or heaven forbid that they should set up an expandible stopstick down the street and intercept him when he leaves his home in his vehicle.

To paraphrase a previous poster: if the ATF had captured Koresh on his trips into town, there wouldn't have been such a glorious display of brave men in uniform keeping us safe from such dangerous men, women and children.

-Sans Authoritas

 

[pbearperry]

What,some cops made a mistake? Get a rope !

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

Someone remind me why the federal government has officers anyway? Shouldn't the state or local enforcement officers be handling this?

Excellent question. Per the Constitution, the only law enforcement option the Union has is to use the militia. There were times when that was exactly what the Union did. However, the first usurpation of this power came in the First Congress in the original act that established the courts. Congress "gave" law enforcement power to the U. S. Marshals equivalent to local sheriffs.

There is no need for these raids. As previously mentioned, there are better and sane ways to apprehend suspects.

Woody

"Charge the Court, Congress, and the several state legislatures with what to do with all the violent criminals who cannot be trusted with arms. We law abiding citizens shouldn't be burdened with having to prove we are not one of the untrustworthy just because those in government don't want to stop crime by keeping violent criminals locked up." B.E. Wood

 

[Sans Authoritas]

One of the main reasons the Founding Fathers wanted the militia to enforce regulations is because the militia did not have anything to gain by enforcing unjust and stupid regulations, while those who actually get paid by the taxpayer 24/7 do have an incentive to perform whatever actions their check-writers tell them to. The citizen-soldier usually suffered economically when he was called (usually coerced) to take up arms, no matter how much he got paid. The citizen-soldiers had lives to lead, and honest business to conduct. In the early days of the doomed republic, the militia system was one of the reasons that stupid regulations did not get passed. Even if they did get passed, they did not get enforced with any enthusiasm.

If a the individuals in government keep a standing army around, they will be tempted to find (or make up reasons) to justify its existence. The same applies to large police departments: especially those that have not yet been privatized.

And all police forces should be privatized.

-Sans Authoritas

 

[pbearperry]

We had a guy on my department that broke into a golf pro shop.He was drunk and in an attempt to get away he charged one of the two cops sent to the silent alarm.The older of the two cops covered him.He covered him with the front sight and shot him.

 

[Cosmoline]

Give them some slack. After all they're only enforcing the all-important crime fighting responsibilities of the Federal Government. Just look what an important place these responsibilities have in the Constitution!

 

[collateral]

On occasion we have to level the playing field!

You should stick to upholding the constitution.

 

[macadore]

The police who do this and those who order it should do prison time. Otherwise, it will just continue.

 

[TexasSkyhawk]

Risks? How pray tell do they know that the individual who they are serving a warrent ON is so dangerous when they have not even recon'd the home/business? Just a TINY bit of real work prevents this type of mistake from happening! It is on par with a guy going into surgury for a knee and having a different surgeon performing a hear transplant on him!

Boy, some of you internet heros and armchair quarterbacks crack me up.

Reminds me of the guys I saw line up for Airborne school, the SWC at Bragg, BUD/s, Idoc/Pipeline and other elite training schools. Lots of "hooyahs" and "all the way" and pushups and posturing and story-swapping . . . right up until they rang the bell or blew the horn.

Fine. No problem. Not everyone is cut out for that line of work and we never thought less of anyone who rang the bell or blew the horn. Hey, at least they gave it a shot, right?

But when those guys took their four or five days or two or three weeks of "experience" and then later on in life proceeded to become "experts" on special operations and how the SEALs and Green Berets and Parajumpers and Rangers should do things and offering a little "criticism" here and there . . .

Wrong address? Zero excuse.

But doing recon right before you raid? Not smart unless you want either A) an empty dwelling or dwelling void of evidence, or B) a real gun fight or resistance waiting on you.

Criminals are not completely stupid. They run entire neighborhoods. They have lookouts and eyes and ears and an intelligence network that the CIA actually studies. 99% of all cops stick out in such such neighborhoods and will be made.

Oh, I know. Some of y'all watch COPS on tv and know how it goes--they always get their man, right?

I especially love the "I'd be dead" responses. Ask anyone who's not only trained in dynamic entry, but who's done it for real just what your chances are. Folks, we did dynamic entry on residences and meeting places for hardcore, battle seasoned terrorists, Sandanistas, and so on. These folks have seen more and done more than you can even dream about and THEY didn't even have the ability or time to hardly even raise a weapon before we were on them and had them face down.

What make you, comfortable and cozy civilians not living in a war-torn land, think that you can and would do better?

I'm not exactly pro-cop, either. I was one, which is probably why. But I also know FIRSTHAND, unlike most of the cop-bashers--what it's like chasing down a bad guy in the bad part of town at the bad part of night and no backup anywhere close.

The vast majority of cops are ouststanding citizens. They put their ass on the line in return for bad hours, bad pay, having a microscope shoved up their butt every time some whiny candyassed citizen even hiccups about them, and finally, for the undying gratitude of a citizenry that is basically too gutless to take on the crime problem themselves. Citizens who bitch and moan about jury duty; citizens who refuse to "get involved" by being a witness or following through on reports/complaints; citizens who wouldn't last two weeks in the academy and/or who would outright refuse to do the job, but are the first to criticize.

Is it ANY WONDER that such a "them against us" attitude exists???

Again, I am NOT excusing the wrong address. I'm not particularly a big fan of "raids" in the first place--but unfortunately, there are instances in which they are needed.

I used to occasionally wonder why so few cops/law enforcement/military types visited this forum . . . Discussions like this one remind me why.

Jeff

 

[Guitargod1985]

And all police forces should be privatized.

Sans, what is your rationale behind this? Just wondering. I happen to agree with much of what you have to say in many threads, but I'm just curious as to why you think this would be a good idea.

 

[mccook8]

ProficientRifleman:

Still waiting on your answer to #37

 

[robertpaulsen]

That is because the right to self-defense with the best means in existence is a right given by God to protect our own lives, which he also gave us.

Certainly God gave every person the right to self-defense. But are you saying God gave the right to self-defense with the best means in existence to every person? Or did God just give that to U.S. Citizens?

 

[yinyangdc]

Everyone has the right to self-defense. Our Constitution merely recognizes that right. Unfortunately, too many in our society do not recognize the Constitution.