What if it was you?

[plexreticle]

I don't understand why criminal charges are not filed in a case like this.
Honest mistake doesn't make up for breaking and entering, aggravated assualt, reckless endangermant.

 

[yinyangdc]

The title of the thread is "What if it was you?", thus thrusting the discussion into the theoretical realm.

 

[Sans Authoritas]

Plex, ask yourself why justice isn't done in such cases. You'll figure out the honest answer. Follow the power and money.

-Sans Authoritas

 

[ProficientRifleman]

Geln,

Shame on you for suggesting such.

I understood Guitargod1985's post as follows...

He said that first he'd be dead. He'd be dead because he would LAWFULLY resist the breaking and entering of his home with deadly force.

When those breaking and entering, finally killed him, they'd realize they had killed the wrong fellow.

Then, (aww shucks), how to cover their arses? Jeez, it seems to Guitargod that the most likely thing that would happen would be a controlled news item pasted on the front page of the local fish-wrap, saying what a dirt-bag Guitargod was and, you know what? The cops found all sorts of contraband in his possession.

Now, in a perfect world: Is this more likely?

Lets say this is taken from tomorrow's News Today:

Unified Press
April 2009

Federal Agents yesterday executed a "no-knock" search warrant on a Gotham city residence.

Local resident Guitargod was asleep on his couch when he heard banging on the door, shouts from outside and breaking windows. Noxious smoke filled the room as Guitargod grabbed his shotgun and prepared to defend himself and his home.

Within seconds, Federal Agents swarmed into the residence through front and back doors. Local resident Guitargod, knowing only that black-clad strangers were breaking into his home, shouting obscenities and preparing to kill him, fired several rounds from his shotgun, slightly wounding two Federal Agents before being shot and killed himself.

Federal Agents late yesterday admitted that no contraband had been found and that indeed, they had served the warrant on the wrong residence.

"The whole thing seems to just be a major screw-up." said Special Agent Smith of the Federal Internal Bureau. The Special Agents involved, Special Agent Huey of Gotham City, Special Agent Dewey of Metropolis, and Special Agent Louie of BigTown, have surrendered themselves for prosecution and have admitted their culpability in the wrongful death of Gotham City resident Guitargod.

Federal District Court Judge Yogie Berra stated late yesterday that if he had known, "How poorly the warrant was written, I would have read it before I signed it...", and that, "The officers responsible for the death of Mr. Guitargod will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I will make it my mission to see that Mr. Guitargod's family will be fully compensated for their loss and anguish".

The Federal Internal Bureau has said that it will make agents available to take calls from angered residents and that there will be safeguards put in place to ensure this kind of mistake is never made again. In line with current Bureau policy, anytime a wrongful shooting occurs it is fully and publicly investigated. Any agents involved in a wrongful shooting will be publicly prosecuted. The agency's "dynamic entry" protocol will be thoroughly reviewed and revised.


Now, you tell me which scenario is most likely.

 

[Ash]

Well, I have never had the police crash into my house, and as a general rule, the police in my small town are professional and are under the direction of somebody I consider to be a real top-notch guy.

That said, three years ago, a policewoman, doing some pretty high speed driving on a street a mere two blocks long, plowed into my wife's car at 2:00AM. She claimed my wife's car was incorrectly parked.

It was not.

She claimed she was driving slow enough to check each of the businesses on that side of the street.

She was not.

And when, at 2:30AM, my wife arrived with our 3-month old baby, she was ticketed for not having proof of insurance or her driver's liscense. It did not matter that my wife was suddenly awakened in the middle of the night, had to dress and dress our infant, and go down to my office (I was, alas, on a trip) and deal with the paper work (her car was totalled). That she forgot her purse at home was not taken into any kind of consideration.

So, yes, I can see a plant happening. CYA happens, as this officer attempted to pin the whole accident on my wife, WHO WAS NOT EVEN THERE!

Of course, the city dropped the ticket, took care of her car, and fired the police officer. There was justice and the folks in charge did things right.

But, the officer did not. Because of that, I can believe what can be done to cover yourself.

Ash

 

[ProficientRifleman]

Ok, enough?

The point of my original post was to get people to think.

Before you give the ATF agents (never mind which agency or department) involved in this incident a pass, and say, "They're just good guys, trying to do a tough job. Sure they might have screwed up but they meant well, and hey, they're human too, people make mistakes...." etc.

I was hoping some of you (specifically those inclined to grant them a pass) would think about yourself being on the receiving end of one of these "honest mistakes".

Think of YOUR house being broken into. Think of YOUR family being terrorized. Think of CS cannisters being fired through YOUR window. Think of masked and black-dressed "operators" pointing submachine guns at YOUR wife, son or daughter.

Would you be so generous? Or would you demand accountability?

Mods, feel free to lock it up if you want. The point has been, for the most part, missed. Never mind.

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

Would you be so generous? Or would you demand accountability?

Neither. I'd most likely be as dead as that 80-or-90-something years old lady who fired on those three plain-clothes officers who broke down her front door on a bogus warrant(I think it was in Atlanta). My wife will not be generous if she survives the incident, but she'll probably be dead, too.

Woody

 

[mccook8]

Here is your answer:

I have no desire to be a cop. I never have had the desire to be a cop. I wouldn't take the job.

That, sir, is merely another way of avoiding a direct answer to the question.

So, I'll turn it around a little.

What do YOU believe would be reasonable compensation for a police officer, who will perform his duties under the conditions and in the manner in which YOU believe they should be performed?

I do not, and have not, "sniveled" about physical danger. Nor, for that matter, about legal liability.

.....EXCEPT where either the danger or the liability, or BOTH, are created by people who know little or nothing about the realities of police work (but believe themselves sufficiently expert to set policy), and they THEN would insist that I bear either or both the risk/danger all by my lonesome.

 

[LAK Supply]

That could have gotten bad at my house.... I probably wouldn't be typing this right now and a couple of others wouldn't be typing anything either. That's what is so dangerous about these raids by paramilitary arms of LE organizations.... many people would have an adverse reaction if people busted down their door and came running in. Somebody kicks my door in and enters my dwelling and I would generally assume that they are there to harm me.

 

[ProficientRifleman]

That, sir, is merely another way of avoiding a direct answer to the question.

No, it was not. It was a direct answer to the question that you asked.

What do YOU believe would be reasonable compensation for a police officer, who will perform his duties under the conditions and in the manner in which YOU believe they should be performed?

I don't have an opinion on pay scales. I cannot speak to anyone else's personal motivation for wanting to be a cop.

As for doing the job the way I think it should be done...

I believe I was seconding an idea presented by another THR member, when he said something like, "If he is so dangerous, why not take him down outside of his residence?" I would agree with that.

I will say this again. This thread is NOT about cop bashing. I posed the question a couple of posts above. Why do you want to give a free pass to egregious conduct? Why?

If it was YOU receiving C/S through your windows and having YOUR door battered down, would you be so generous in hearing, "sorry..it was an honest mistake..."

Would YOU want accountability?

 

[brerrabbit]

based on the original scenario,,,

Accountability is everything.

Otherwise I would be too tempted to do a lower spine shot on at least one as they left my premises as a method of holding the armed homebreakers until lawful authority showed

My two cents.

Show me a warrant and I will be one of the most polite people you will meet that day. I will even brew a new pot of coffee for the officers until we get stuff straightened out.

Bust into my home without a warrant or a wrong warrant, I will do my best to kill every bad person on sight even if they claim that they are police. Hint: a lot of home invaders have learned to yell "police" on entry to stop resistance. The only acceptable way to search my home is to have officer freindly present his credentials and then his warrant and things will procede nicely.

Kill me while I am defending my home and things will only get nastier for the LEO that are left behind while the ATF leaves. I have a lot of kin that will probably feel a bit raw about it.

 

[Guitargod1985]

So is what you are saying is that you are a criminal and the cops would have come up with this stuff? Magically I suppose because you have it hidden away so well you think no one can find it. Why do I ask this - well because of what you said and because of what the law enforcement officers actually did. No one in the wrong house was arrested subsequent to a seuzure of drugs that magically appeared, no one was accused of having illegal weapons, in fact no one in the house was accused of anything - no one except for the LEOs. They screwed up and made a mistake - and that DOES NOT MEAN IN ANY WAY SHAPE OF FORM THAT BECAUSE YOU HAVE A WILD IMAGINATION THAT THEY WOULD PLANT SOMETHING THERE AND ARREST AN INNOCENT PERSON. Shame on you if that is what you are suggesting. Of course, maybe you just have that Murphy's law kind of luck and feel that is how it would have been for you due to your own personal black cloud; I can understand that completely because I have the nickname of Jose Negro or Joe Black. In reality though, it is evident from the story that the LEOs were wrong, made a mistake, and were making reparations for that mistake. Happily they did not blast anyone or burn down the house.

Ummm... no. I have no illegal firearms and I do not indulge in illegal drug use. Perhaps I should break it down for you so that you can understand.

First of all, the OP's original question was "what is it was you?" Well, if it were me, and I awoke to several unknown individuals breaking into my apartment, I would defend myself with lethal force. As a result I would likely be killed.

Since the above action is the answer to "what if it was you," the outcome varies quite a bit from the article quoted. That homeowner did not use lethal force, and as a result was not killed. Therefore there was no reason to plant evidence.

That's about as simple as I can make it for you.

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

Just to add something to the mix, I don't believe police officers should be put in such risky situations. There are much safer ways to apprehend people. Take, for example, how Bonny and Clyde were "apprehended". Ambush tactics are not only for bandits robbing stage coaches. There are many "narrow passes" where such people can be taken that are much better than their well-armed castles.

Woody

 

[Ithaca37]

But doing recon right before you raid? Not smart unless you want either A) an empty dwelling or dwelling void of evidence, or B) a real gun fight or resistance waiting on you.

Right, that is why the military NEVER preforms reconnaissance of targets before attacking. If recon can be done on MILITARY targets, it sure as hell can be performed on the local cannabis dealer.

If a doctor performs an operation on the wrong leg, he is held accountable. If a manufacturer sells a batch of faulty merchandise, he is held responsible. Why are the police not held responsible for their mistakes? That is all everyone here is asking for. Nothing more. Just some god damn personal responsibility for when YOU screw up. The rest of us deal with consequences for our actions every day, when did a badge and a suit make you immune for accountability?

 

[Bubbles]

In response to the OP's question, there would be:

- two dead GSD's,
- two dead homeowners,
- an unknown number of dead cops, and
- one very wealthy toddler after the estate is probated and the civil suits settled.

 

[XDKingslayer]

What if it was me?

I'd be dead and the wife would be independantly wealthy. Let me apologize now to the families of the ATF agents I took with me.

 

[TexasSkyhawk]

Right, that is why the military NEVER preforms reconnaissance of targets before attacking. If recon can be done on MILITARY targets, it sure as hell can be performed on the local cannabis dealer.

Apples to oranges. If you'd done both, you'd already know that and know why.

Also, if you'd done EITHER (actual combat operations with small unit cqc or LE sog/swat, etc type work), you'd know that in the military, most operations depend on intelligence rather than unit/scout/point reconnaissance.

Most law enforcement warrants come from similar type intelligence from CI's, testimony, or undercover observations. Drug and weapons dealers are extraordinarily paranoid and have lookouts and intel systems that are as good as any I ever saw in Bosnia, Iraq, Cambodia or Central America. Only better I have ever seen have been in Hong Kong (Triads) and South America (cartels).

Mind you, I am NOT excusing their mistake. An address is black & white. You check, double check and triple check the details before you go playing Rambo-Ninja.

Just pointing out the difference in how we did things in the military versus how we did things in civilian situations.

Besides, I don't think you or anyone else really wants our cops getting any more mlitary like, do you? I sure as hell don't.

If a doctor performs an operation on the wrong leg, he is held accountable. If a manufacturer sells a batch of faulty merchandise, he is held responsible. Why are the police not held responsible for their mistakes? That is all everyone here is asking for. Nothing more. Just some god damn personal responsibility for when YOU screw up. The rest of us deal with consequences for our actions every day, when did a badge and a suit make you immune for accountability?

What sources do you have that are telling you that the cops in question didn't get in some sort of trouble?

Guess what? My badge had an eagle on it which meant we worked with a lot of local task forces. When they screwed up, I made sure it was noted in MY reports. Didn't always make me real popular with some of the local agencies, but guess what else? I didn't really give a damn.

Whoever lead that raid got an ass-chewing for the wrong address, and I'll almost guarantee that a LOR was placed in his file.

You also assume that a "badge and a suit" make you immune for (sic) accountability.

You assume wrong, sir. I do not know of one single group in this country today that airs every single piece of its dirty laundry every time a piece gets soiled. Do you?

Jeff

 

[Ithaca37]

Besides, I don't think you or anyone else really wants our cops getting any more military like, do you? I sure as hell don't.

Agreed.

What sources do you have that are telling you that the cops in question didn't get in some sort of trouble?

Try kicking in a door without your uniform on and see what happens. That is exactly what happened here. The warrant gave them permission to kick in the door of another house, not the one that they hit. They are at the very least guilt of breaking and entering. They had no permission to enter that home.

Whoever lead that raid got an ass-chewing for the wrong address, and I'll almost guarantee that a LOR was placed in his file.

If I kicked in your door in the dead of night, a warning would be sufficient justice for you?

Guess what? My badge had an eagle on it which meant we worked with a lot of local task forces. When they screwed up, I made sure it was noted in MY reports. Didn't always make me real popular with some of the local agencies, but guess what else? I didn't really give a damn.

I am glad that you do your job, thanks. I never said all cops, just these ones.

You also assume that a "badge and a suit" make you immune for (sic) accountability.

Thanks for correcting my grammar mistake.

Maybe one day I can be elevated to your high and mighty status where I can brag about doing my job like I am supposed to and belittling others.

 

[coloradokevin]

What sources do you have that are telling you that the cops in question didn't get in some sort of trouble?

I agree. I know of one incident where something similar to this happened where I work (years ago, before I was working here). The SWAT team went into the wrong address, because they were given the wrong address by the detective (in other words, the blunder was on the detective, not the SWAT team, and the warrant indicated that wrong address). Anyway, that detective was taken off of the street, given a ten month administrative suspension, and ultimately fired as a result of that case.

So, just because the media doesn't know about it, doesn't mean that justice isn't being handed out.

They are at the very least guilt of breaking and entering. They had no permission to enter that home.

Actually, based on the definition of the laws, I would argue not.

The mens rea ('criminal intent') for 1st degree Criminal Trespass is "knowingly". The mens rea for 2nd degree Burglary is also "knowingly", with the addition of a requirement of an "intent" to commit another crime. I should note that we have no B&E statute in CO.

These folks were acting in a manner that they believed to be lawful, and made a huge blunder. A reasonable person could easily conclude that they had a reason to believe what they were doing was lawful (despite the fact that they made a huge error in calculation).

But, by statutory definition, they were not commiting a criminal act!

 

[TexasSkyhawk]

You're already belittling others and yelling and chest-pounding for "accountability for mistakes."

I call you out on one little grammatical mistake, and get the exact response I fully expected. After all, aren't these your words?

Just some god damn personal responsibility for when YOU screw up. The rest of us deal with consequences for our actions every day, when did a badge and a suit make you immune for accountability?

I just pointed out a little, almost inconsequential mistake you made and you responded by calling me a "prick."

In other words, you can dish it out, but you can't take it.

'Nuff said. Point made.

Ain't easy living in a glass house, is it?

That's the house our cops and military live and work in every single day of their lives. I don't like seeing them make such mistakes and I believe in accountability.

But I also don't like seeing them painted with the same brush. We, as gun owners, don't like that much either, remember?

Jeff

 

[ProficientRifleman]

The police and military shouldn't be grouped together.

 

[pbearperry]

What if,Bla bla bla.ATF hits wrong house.Nobody injured,nobody killed,but what if,Bla Bla Bla.Boy do I miss talking about guns and the enjoyment of owning them and shooting them.

 

[nothinspecial]

plexreticle you apparently know absolutely nothing about law, other than a few nifty terms.
and the rest of you naysayers, give it a damn rest. They fixed the house, appologized, and went on their way. But, now days we live in a world of law suits and money fixes all.

 

[TexasSkyhawk]

Please don't group them together.

Spent a lot of years in both. Got wounded in both. Won medals in both. Got praised in both. Got spit on and cussed in both.

I think I've earned the right to group them together in my way of thinking given today's views and attitudes.

Jeff

 

[ProficientRifleman]

Mods, please lock it up.

I tried to get people to think about this objectively. Some people responded with worst case scenario, some with humor, some with satire.

I don't believe I have seen one post, by someone who has identified himself as a police officer, which responded to the question.

Honest mistake or not....What if it was YOU, YOUR house, YOUR family?

OK, enough.

Seems as though when you happen to notice an incident like the one in the original story, and you bring it to light, you're cop-bashing.

Jeez, never mind.

Submit, comply, be passive... The cops are always right.

Why don't all you mere citizens be good and go play with your guns.