What if it was you?

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Boy, some of you internet heros and armchair quarterbacks crack me up.

I think that they are just giving options they believe to be correct. There is this saying, about how America's justice system (used to) be based on only convicting those you were certain commited a crime. It is better to let a bad guy free than to jail the innocent. This is why trial by jury is supposed to "find guilt beyond a reasonable doubt".

Mistakes are made in a finding and capturing criminals. Sometimes the innocent people are captured, the jury trial is supposed to prevent wrongful convictions.

On the other hand, no-knock raids with armed ATF agents completely removes this process. A mistake is made, and an innocent person may (and indeed they have been) condemned to death.

Even a death penalty jury trial has an appeals process, to make sure no mistake is made. With these tactics, when a mistake is made, it can and will eliminate the jury and the appeals process. Something that should be looked upon with much disgust.
 
Boy, some of you internet heros and armchair quarterbacks crack me up.

But doing recon right before you raid? Not smart unless you want either A) an empty dwelling or dwelling void of evidence, or B) a real gun fight or resistance waiting on you.


Boy, some folks either have some reading comprehension problems are are just a little dense! Doing recon to at least make sure you know WHERE you are supposed to be going might outta be part of the process!
 
A question

No one from the ATF would speak to NBC 6 on camera, but a representative said over the phone that it was an innocent mistake, agents apologized on the scene and ATF would repair any damages.

Something not answered yet in three pages, so here's a question I've got: Just what are Federal Government ATF agents doing conducting a raid in Florida, or any other state?
 
maybe it would be better to try to interdict drugs by going after dealers on tax evasion
 
So an enforcement operation was executed at the worng address, with the inherant damage and risk associated with such things having occurred?

As already stated, there are no excuses. The remedy is civil and the penalty substantial.

All of which should be able to be agreed upon, or not, in a manner "higher roadish" than what is typically found throughout threads like these.
 
Or better yet, a good percentage of the problems with illegal drugs would go away if they were no longer illegal. Then we could more effectively deal with the remaining problems. D'ya think?
 
Hell,lets make everything legal and do away with Police altogether?Survival of the fittest for everyone.Hell let's legalize prostitution everywhere so guys can get all they want.Seems to me tired guys would make no problems?Total anarchy,thats what I say.lol
 
Illegal drugs...

Irrelevant, in that you are assuming it was drug related, and even if it was, there are many other types of investigations that lead down similar paths.

And while we're at assumptions, "we're" assuming it was a "raid," a "no-knock," and that the tactics used were uncalled for had they been at the correct location.

Again, the issue, and about the only thing we can confirm given what little infomration we "know," is the wrong location. And I already said it: there is no excuse for that.
 
I especially love the "I'd be dead" responses.

Well, my door comes crashing in, I am certain to have a gun in my hand probably .5 to 1.0 seconds, I would be heavily outnumbered and outgunned...

Ending up dead is at least a very likely possibility don't you think?

I mean, I would like to think I could outgun them all, walk up to the mobile command center, knock on the door and explain to the headphone wearing communications specialist on the other side that there was some sort of mix-up.

Somehow, I don't think I would get quite that far...
 
I didn't see anywhere in the article about how long it took them to figure out they were at the wrong address and let the mother and kid go. Was it 15 minutes or a few hours or the next day?
 
mccook8

Hmmmm.......how much is that WORTH?

How much would YOU insist upon being paid to work as a police officer, and to do the job as YOU believe it should be done, in all aspects?


Here is your answer:

I have no desire to be a cop. I never have had the desire to be a cop. I wouldn't take the job.

I have, however, been a soldier. I took on THAT responsibility with my eyes open and fully cognizant of the potential costs to me and those who care about me. Never during my military career did I find myself sniveling about how under paid and under appreciated I was. I never cried about the "risks I have to face day do day...you just don't know..."

I have been a Ranger, a Special Forces soldier, a combat diver, a Drill Sgt., and an instructor at SWC.

I was trained in C/T, room clearing (yes, the strong wall method) and such things as you call Dynamic Entry, more than twenty years ago, when I was a private. I understood then what the risks were. I did that kind of work because I wanted to. NOT because it would garner me a bunch of "respect". I am pretty sure I was ALWAYS paid substantially less than the average street cop.

If you want to be a cop, be one. I don't care. If you want to be on a SWAT team, feel free to do so. BUT when you foul up like these guys did, you SHOULD be held responsible.

When you bust down an innocent citizen's door, launch gas canisters through their windows, and point submachine guns at them...etc., You should be held accountable. When you royally foul up and ruin people's homes and risk their lives, you should be held accountable.

What is happening now, and the trend is, as far as I can tell, the cops get to walk away, toss a "hey, sorry...we'll pay for the damages" over their shoulder as they leave, and the city/county/state/fedgov will send a contractor out to cover their arses.

If you happen to notice this arrogance and Jack-Booted behavior, then you are "cop bashing".
 
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Hell,lets make everything legal and do away with Police altogether?Survival of the fittest for everyone.Hell let's legalize prostitution everywhere so guys can get all they want.Seems to me tired guys would make no problems?Total anarchy,thats what I say.lol

Exactly, LEO's are human and thus prone to mistakes, so until we have robot police officers, we will continue to have said issues, if we get rid of the police then we WILL need all of our guns.
 
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Exactly, LEO's are human and thus prone to mistakes, so until we have robot police officers, we will continue to have said issues, get rid of the police and we WILL need all of our guns.

Oh please. If I made a mistake like that at work I'd be fired or suspended by my company and my license suspended or revoked.

There is no excuse for that carelessness nor the failure of the agencies involved to punish this type of behavior.

Being held accountable for mistakes isn't abolishing the police, it's making them responsible for their actions.
 
lets make everything legal
Drugs, prostitution, gambling - YES
Robbery, rape, murder, assault - NO
You seem to be thinking all or nothing. We should have a right to do what we want with our own body, and no right to INFRINGE on someone else.

Think about this for a second. NO, REALLY, I mean it. Engage your brain and THINK about this:
With drug legalization there would be no criminal activity regarding sale and transport of drugs. Our public lands would not be used for growing marijuana, thus not causing environmental problems that are currently being experienced and removing a source of danger to legitimate users of public lands.
A lot of the militarization of our police force has been due to the War on (some) Drugs, which has contributed a good deal to these attacks on homes.

Okay everybody join in a circle, breathe in, breathe out, and chant: Limited Government, Personal Responsibility. Limited Government, Personal Responsibility. ohhhhmmmmmmm
 
yinyangdc,

There's too much of that "logic" stuff in your post. And in ProficientRifleman's posts. Think inside the box.

-Sans Authoritas
 
I don't understand why an agency that feels it has to go to such lengths to enter a domicile in an overwhelming fashion can skip out on the fundamental step of reconnaissance.

There's a lot more to say, but it's certainly difficult to say it while keeping to "the high road" and I don't know that I'm up for it at the moment. I'm certainly not happy with the state of law enforcement in this country.
 
Sans Authoritas wrote:
And all police forces should be privatized.

Guitargod1985 wrote:
Sans, what is your rationale behind this? Just wondering. I happen to agree with much of what you have to say in many threads, but I'm just curious as to why you think this would be a good idea.

Guitar, it comes down to a concept known as the "public choice theory." It's essentially a branch of economics, but in relation to governments, in particular. Here's a very brief summary, in my paraphrasing for this particular topic: When a number of people vote for a few people to run parts of their lives, they tip the first power domino in a series of thousands, whose paths will eventually intrude into every conceivable facet of people's lives. Government will continue to grow as long as it has the ability to tax and to force people to fight for its continued existence. While it's easy for a group of people to vote for someone . . . once that person is in office? Well, it's very difficult for them to stem the tide of what they have unleashed.

When you keep as many government operations as you can at a local level, it is less dangerous in the short term. (Note that I did not say "better." Small tax-funded governments turn into big ones.) It is less dangerous because at the local level, your political voice (a vote, perhaps) carries more weight than a vote for someone on the national level. You are nothing to the Federal government. You are worthless to it except as a drone bee that supplies its honey. Similarly, you are nothing to your local government, qua local government. But you are a drone bee that can more easily vote to oust the fat queen that currently rules the hive (in favor of another fat queen.) For this reason, the queen has a more imminent, convincing reason to at least pretend to care what you think.

Accountability. It's not there on the Federal level. There's more at the local level. But when you turn the police into a contracted company that isn't joined to the body politic as a political member, you suddenly have an agency that has a much greater monetary incentive to please its customers. Its customer, in such a case, is still the government, albeit chosen by people whose voices are louder, but still not strong enough to stop the government's growth. Such "privatization" as this has been done with EMS, municipal water supplies and other formerly "public" goods, with excellent results.

A full privatization, however, would mean a police force that is bound to no tax-based government. It would be bound only to laws accepted as sane by the vast majority of people. (Protection against traditionally and universally known violations of life, liberty and property.) Such a business would be not unlike an insurance company: you subscribe to police protection, but you can pay for an emergency use fee, as well.

It seems almost everyone considers a tax-based government to be the watcher of the sheep. Who watches the watcher? The sheep need to be convinced that the only laws they need are laws that prohibit manifest violations of life, liberty and property. They need to scorn laws that exist so other sheep can feel good, or laws that merely serve to make the shepherd stronger, and his staff more burdensome and cruel.

-Sans Authoritas
 
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I'd be dead.

When the news story finally came out I'm sure there would be some kind of controlled substance that magically happened to materialize in my residence. Also, one of my shotguns would undoubtedly have a barrel 17 7/8" in length.

So is what you are saying is that you are a criminal and the cops would have come up with this stuff? Magically I suppose because you have it hidden away so well you think no one can find it. Why do I ask this - well because of what you said and because of what the law enforcement officers actually did. No one in the wrong house was arrested subsequent to a seuzure of drugs that magically appeared, no one was accused of having illegal weapons, in fact no one in the house was accused of anything - no one except for the LEOs. They screwed up and made a mistake - and that DOES NOT MEAN IN ANY WAY SHAPE OF FORM THAT BECAUSE YOU HAVE A WILD IMAGINATION THAT THEY WOULD PLANT SOMETHING THERE AND ARREST AN INNOCENT PERSON. Shame on you if that is what you are suggesting. Of course, maybe you just have that Murphy's law kind of luck and feel that is how it would have been for you due to your own personal black cloud; I can understand that completely because I have the nickname of Jose Negro or Joe Black. In reality though, it is evident from the story that the LEOs were wrong, made a mistake, and were making reparations for that mistake. Happily they did not blast anyone or burn down the house.

Regards,
Glenn B
 
Yes, they should do reconnaissance to prevent any mistakes while they are enforcing laws. They should follow the example of the FBI: when they were staking out Randy Weaver's property because they entrapped him into sawing a piece of metal too short for the liking of Those Who Know Better, they enlisted the use of redirected DoD spy satellite to track movement around his house. Now that is how you enforce a law.

-Sans Authoritas
 
I'd be dead.

When the news story finally came out I'm sure there would be some kind of controlled substance that magically happened to materialize in my residence. Also, one of my shotguns would undoubtedly have a barrel 17 7/8" in length.

Glenn Bartley wrote:
They screwed up and made a mistake - and that DOES NOT MEAN IN ANY WAY SHAPE OF FORM THAT BECAUSE YOU HAVE A WILD IMAGINATION THAT THEY WOULD PLANT SOMETHING THERE AND ARREST AN INNOCENT PERSON. Shame on you for suggesting such.

Regards,
Glenn B

Shame? For what?

Except for the shotgun, what he described is precisely what happened in Atlanta, Georgia, not too long ago. And I strongly doubt it is the first or the last time.

-Sans Authoritas
 
Being held accountable for mistakes isn't abolishing the police, it's making them responsible for their actions.

Exactly, sorry about my previous post that was the gist I was trying to get out, Accountability is the thing needed, Would a civilian accountability board be a good idea, I think that might be a viable option.
 
We are or were talking about a specific time, place, event, and specific LEOs here. Now suddenly it is elsewhere. Forget it, it is getting absurdly anti-LEO based on conjecture, speculation, and on events other than the specific ones being discussed. Way to stray off topic.
 
We are or were talking about a specific time, place, event, and specific LEOs here. Now suddenly it is elsewhere. Forget it, it is getting absurdly anti-LEO based on conjecture, speculation, and on events other than the specific ones being discussed. Way to stray off topic.

As I saw it, we were talking about the principle and practical effects of all such raids, and the lack of scruples and accountability during and after their execution. I know that's the context in which the person you were responding to was speaking.

-Sans Authoritas
 
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