What is the point of a Red Dot versus fixed sights.

[shootistpd27]

I am new to rifles, I love hand guns but dont care for long guns. I have heard alot of people bragging on red dot sights but the ones that I have tried out dont offer any better sight picture. It has been my experience that you have to get the red dot on target just like you would your front sights, and if that is the case, why bother with paying the extra dime? A friend of mine did tell me that as long as the dot is on your target in the sight picture that you will hit it, is this true? It seems far fetched that it is that easy. Thanks in advance for your responses.

 

[BeJaRa]

a reddot sight is usually a reflex sight, like your friend said, just place the red dot on target and squeez the trigger. Red dots are not precision sights but give you a really quick sight picture.

 

[briansmithwins]

Red dots are faster.

Will a red dot make a crappy shooter faster than a good one? Of course not.

But both the crappy shooter and the good shooter will get hits on a target faster than with irons. Plus the dots are easier to learn.

BSW

 

[TonyAngel]

The advantages that your friend told you about are true and hitting with a good red dot is as simple as putting the dot on the target. As long as you can see the target through the tube and the dot is on the target, you will hit what you are aiming at. In response to your reference to the field of view of a red dot, or lack thereof, you need to understand that red dot sights are intended to be used with both eye open, so in use, the red dot actually has a bigger field of view.

The simple advantage is that when targeting, you are only lining up two points on a two dimensional plane rather than three on a three dimensional plane.

Now, all of this has its caveats. What I described above applies to good red dot sights. What I mean by good is those that are built well enough not to have a wandering zero (can take recoil) and are parallax free (for practical purposes) with a good bright and well defined dot that can be seen in the brightest daylight.

Some of the inexpensive models from places like Vortex and Primary Arms work well. The best of the breed is arguably going to be the Aimpoint line of red dots and they are pricey. The differences between a less expensive knock off and a real Aimpoint are that the Aimpoints have about a five year battery life, a very bright dot and are water proof (varying in degrees by model). Their settings are also rock solid. These are built to withstand the rigors of battle.

I can't comment any more about the less expensive models. I stuck to Aimpoints when I was using red dots. My aging eyes and astigmatism have moved me over the the 1.5X ACOGs. The Aimpoints are worth the $500+ price tag.

If you are considering a red dot and have the finances, I'd suggest looking at the Aimpoint line. They even have a model intended for hunting type rifles. If you don't want to spend the money, check out Vortex, Primary Arms and Ultra Dot to name a few.

 

[shootistpd27]

Picture this.....You are looking through the scope, the dot is in the upper right hand corner, in a totally different direction than the fixed sights while on target. If the dot is on your target in the aforementioned location, are you on target?

 

[courtgreene]

also, a lot of people are like me... we just really like scopes. Once you get used to looking through that circle and having a certain feel of the stock against your cheek, it just seems strange to get down and aim with irons. Once you get over how different it feels on your face, you say "holy crap where's my comfortable circle?"
Even a 1x scope works better for me than irons. Even with a scout-style set up when it's way out in front of the receiver (I have two of these). It's just what I've gotten used to. Thus, there is a point even though it probably gives me no advantage and may pose a disadvantage (field of view).

 

[Fumbler]

I think the biggest advantage is your eye focuses on the target when using a red dot. With iron sights you focus on the front sight which makes your target blurry. A red dot won't make you more accurate, but it will make it easier to shoot as accurately as you can with iron sights.

Picture this.....You are looking through the scope, the dot is in the upper right hand corner, in a totally different direction than the fixed sights while on target. If the dot is on your target in the aforementioned location, are you on target?

That depends on how much parallax error the red dot has. Every sight that does not have two reference points (any non-iron sight) will have parallax error. However, some have much less parallax error. In the situation you described a cheap red dot sight can be off as much as a couple of inches. With an EOTech it won't be off far enough for you to know if it's your error or the sight.

 

[ny32182]

Picture this.....You are looking through the scope, the dot is in the upper right hand corner, in a totally different direction than the fixed sights while on target. If the dot is on your target in the aforementioned location, are you on target?

Yes... and that is the primary advantage and why it is faster. With a red dot, you need to line up two things: the dot and the target. If you can see the dot, and it is on the target, you will hit the target. The bullet goes where the dot is. You don't need a perfect cheekweld, or any cheek weld. That is why they call it a "reflex" sight. Throw the rifle to your shoulder with both eyes open, see levetating dot, pull trigger.

With irons you need to line up four things: target, front sight, rear sight, and your eye. This is why it is slower.

Other advantages to the red dot as some have mentioned:

-easier to use in low light
-better situational awareness through effortless both eyes open use
-you can maintain better focus on the target, since your eye is focused on the target and not the front sight.

 

[shootistpd27]

Awesome. Thanks so much for your help. I have been arguing against red dots sights since they were so expensive. My argument is now busted.

 

[ny32182]

It is pretty neat when you see it for the first time. If you are able to try one out (Aimpoint/Eotech) do this: Set the rifle in a fixed location; a rest, etc, then look through the center of the rear of the red dot, and see where the dot is on a "target" down range. Then move your head around while keeping the rifle still and watch the dot. It moves within the FOV of the optic since your head is moving in relation to the FOV, but the dot stays planted right in the same place on the target down range.

As Fumbler mentioned, there will always be *some* parallax error, but with a quality red dot it will be extremely minimal; less than the accuracy spread of the ammo would be expected. If you buy a super cheap one you may not get that same level of performance.

 

[benEzra]

Picture this.....You are looking through the scope, the dot is in the upper right hand corner, in a totally different direction than the fixed sights while on target. If the dot is on your target in the aforementioned location, are you on target?

Yes (with a quality sight with either lensatic or holographic correction for parallax, e.g. an Aimpoint or an Eotech).

An el cheapo red dot from Wal-Mart will induce some parallax error, but even at the edge of the lens of a cheap Walmart ProPoint, you are only looking at a couple inches error at 50 or 100 yards, IIRC.

 

[jmorris]

You don't have to line up a dot.

 

[CeeZar]

All of the above is true. But if you are new(ish) to rifles, do yourself a favor and learn to shoot well with irons before adding any optic.

 

[jon86]

+1 to CeeZar's post

 

[R.W.Dale]

All of the above is true. But if you are new(ish) to rifles, do yourself a favor and learn to shoot well with irons before adding any optic.

At one time I would have agreed with this whole heartedly but after getting familat with modern optics I'm not so sure it's so critical.

It's kinda like saying you need to know how to use a rotary dial phone in order to make a call on an iPhone

 

[dmazur]

I struggled with a Browning SA22, trying to set it up for both iron sights and a scope.

The cantilever scope mount I liked required removing the rear sight.

I looked at mounting a receiver sight on the side, but it just didn't seem like a smart course to follow. (The Browning SA22 is a relatively thin design, and hanging hardware on the side would be visually jarring and probably catch on everything, too.)

So, after shooting it a few times with a little Leupold 1-4X, I decided it was just fine without iron sights. 1X for "snap shots" at grouse, and 4X for hitting cans at 50 yds.

So, yes, I can understand the dial telephone analogy, even if all I did was move up to Touch Tone.

 

[ArmedBear]

I only use a red dot for competitive pistol shooting.

Open sights are slow, inaccurate, and fatiguing, but on a rifle, aperture sights are quick, relatively accurate, light, and easy to use. That's why you'll see aperture sights on military rifles since before WW II, including the AR platform.

Red dots may provide a marginal improvement on a long gun that's shot from a proper hold -- not that a lot of rifle shooters seem to know what gun fit or a cheek weld are.

Red dots provide a huge improvement if you have to shoot a carbine from a compromised shooting position. That is their real merit for military and defensive applications. You can't always choose to shoot with ideal form when you're under attack.

So, my thoughts fork two different ways: the red dot has some real merit, especially for short-range use in compromised shooting positions, BUT rifle shooters would do well to practice with aperture sights and learn about gun fit and the proper ways to hold a rifle, also.

Personally, I have spent my money to put magnifying scopes or aperture sights on rifles. If I set up a carbine for serious defensive use, I'd probably put a reflex sight on it, but I'm not 100% sure I would. Profile, weight and reliability matter to me, also. Currently, I don't have a carbine set up for serious defensive use, since my living situation favors other firearms.

 

[wombat13]

Open sights are slow, inaccurate, and fatiguing, but on a rifle, aperture sights are quick, relatively accurate, light, and easy to use. That's why you'll see aperture sights on military rifles since before WW II, including the AR platform.

Aperture sights work well until they get clogged with mud, snow, or rain. I took my garand hunting a couple times and I regularly had to blow through the aperture to clear the rain or the snow. I prefer not to make any noise in my tree stand.

I can imagine what it has to feel like if you are suddenly under fire and find that your aperture sights are clogged.

 

[ArmedBear]

I can imagine what it has to feel like if you are suddenly under fire and find that your aperture sights are clogged.

True.

...or your reflex sight is covered with the same mud or snow.

I don't see how a red dot solves that problem; if anything, a toothpick, wire, bullet tip, etc. can be used to clear the aperture -- but not an optic.

The US Army used to teach soldiers to hit close, moving targets without using sights at all, using Red Ryder BB guns as training tools. There's a reason for that. It's a good skill to have, whatever sights you have. Skeet is a fun way to practice, too.

 

[TonyAngel]

As far as the red dot getting covered with mud and snow goes, if it's the front getting covered with mud and snow, it's not a problem. If you leave both eye open, you can still see the dot in one eye and the target in the other. Just like the older occluded(?) sights.

When I ran a red dot, I commonly kept a flip up cover on the rear lens to keep it from getting dirty.

All of the above aside, red dots are a really cool piece of gear and will make things happen faster, although they will not make up for poor trigger control.

 

[Sebastian the Ibis]

A well maintained red dot allows much faster acquisition of a sight picture on a target, especially while moving at close ranges.

Very few red-dots are well maintained. Iron's don't wander or get jostled easily, so they require almost no maintenance. Watch the next random guy you see at the range with a red dot, I'll bet it takes him at least 5-10 shots to adjust his zero. Watch the old guy with a .22 with iron sights, I'll bet his first couple of shots are right on the money.

What do you want the rifle for: Quick accuracy after you have had a chance to play with it, or slightly slower accuracy right away? If it is the former go Red-dot, if it is the later go irons.

 

[Hatterasguy]

Red dots are great if you kick down doors for a living. Other than that they are mostly range toys.

 

[migkillertwo]

two words
target acquisition.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Red dots are great if you kick down doors for a living. Other than that they are mostly range toys.

Sure cause everyone knows that fast target aquisition in all lighting conditions is just a passing fad like those infernal self contained cartridges

 

[benEzra]

Very few red-dots are well maintained. Iron's don't wander or get jostled easily, so they require almost no maintenance. Watch the next random guy you see at the range with a red dot, I'll bet it takes him at least 5-10 shots to adjust his zero. Watch the old guy with a .22 with iron sights, I'll bet his first couple of shots are right on the money.

What do you want the rifle for: Quick accuracy after you have had a chance to play with it, or slightly slower accuracy right away? If it is the former go Red-dot, if it is the later go irons.

That is true of el cheapo Walmart red dots, yes (I can personally vouch for that). Quality red dots, on the other hand, can retain zero under most conditions that irons can, including being dropped onto concrete and landing on the sight... Admittedly, a quality optic costs a lot more than quality irons, but it also gives you capability in less-than-ideal lighting and less-than-ideal shooting positions that standard iron sights would have trouble with.

Red dots are great if you kick down doors for a living. Other than that they are mostly range toys.

Unless you keep a long gun for defensive purposes, or unless you hunt varmints and coyotes in less than ideal lighting, or unless your eyes start to have trouble seeing iron sights clearly due to the shortening of one's arms with age...