What is the point of the 9mm carbine?

[gnut]

oh and yea Kel-Tec needs to do some expansion of the sub2000.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

No point; just a fun lead hose. Lack of recoil makes it fun. If it ain't suppressed and/or full-auto, then there's some other gun of the same size which will do the job better, due to better cartridge.

 

[zorro45]

9mm carbine

1.can shoot at most indoor ranges
2.very reliable feeding because of slightly trapezoidal shape of case
3.cheaper than 45 ammo
4.fits in vehicle better
5.will never ever be confused w/ a "sporting" arm

 

[rob_s]

Some of the statements in this thread make me wonder if people have ever even seen a 9mm carbine or subgun fired, let alone fired or owned one themselves.

If you want a suppressed VSBR (very short barrel rifle) 9mm is the way to go. A 7.5" barrel 5.56 AR will be a nice way to make .22 caliber holes in your target and not much else, and will almost certainly not get up to a sufficient velocity for the projectile to perform as designed. Further hamstring it by intentionally downloading the round to be subsonic and you might as well keep an icepick for home defense.

A 9mmm VSBR, however, is shooting projectiles from a barrel even longer than what they were designed for yet can still keep a 147 grain HP subsonic AND the projectile is designed to expand at those velocities.

Also, the idea that a 9mm carbine is incapable of making hits out to 100 + yards makes me scratch my head. We used to have two guys come out to our matches with Mini Uzis and get hits on 8" steel plates at over 100 yards. Made a believer out of me, and if they can do it with that gun, anyone can do it with a 9mm AR.

 

[kiawahman]

Well said rob_s.

 

[coondawg47]

9mm carbines can be effective out too 200 yards (with practice). I have a Hi point carbine and a Kel tec sub2000. Shooting both rifles from the prone position with a sandbag rest I can hit 1 Gal milk jugs easily at 200 yards with both rifles, off hand is another story. The 26 inches of bullet drop is what makes the practice necessary. Most shooters that tried this would probably get a hit on round two if they new the bullet drop before hand and used all of the shooting fundementals. I consider both of my carbines to be 100 yard guns. I still shoot them at 200 yards occasionally (usually when someone doesn't believe they can get consistent hits that far out).

 

[browningguy]

Well a 9mm carbine may not be the best for any given situation, however it's pretty useful from 0-100 yards, musch farther than I can accurately shoot a 9mm pistol. My little Sub 2000 folds up and fits nicely in a briefcase with four 33 round mags, what's not to like?

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

A 7.5" barrel 5.56 AR will be a nice way to make .22 caliber holes in your target and not much else, and will almost certainly not get up to a sufficient velocity for the projectile to perform as designed.

Yes, while that may be true, we have to ask ourselves, why would anyone want a 7.5" bbled rifle of ANY caliber, for ANY reason, at ANY time? When the gun isn't concealable anyway, why do we need a barrel shorter than 14 or 16"? Other than strictly coolness factor? A .500 S&W subgun might be the way to go for 1" SBR, too, but neither it nor a 7.5" gun in 9mm or any other caliber makes any sense (to me anyway).

Having said all that, I agree with your proposition that IF (and only if) it is a suppressed weapon, AND/OR a select-fire weapon (and especially if both), then a 9mm subgun with 147 subsonics makes a lot of sense for a CQB fighting gun. But the short barrel is not needed. A LONG barrel is not needed either, but a suppressed 9mm is probably optimized around a 10 or 12" bbl. Nothing wrong with SBRs, but point is: Suppressed weapons are needed for certain applications; short barreled weapons aren't really needed; so IF the application does not call for a level of silence/low profile, then it makes far more sense to use an intermediate caliber carbine, with a 14+ inch barrel. Just my opinion anyway.

Edit: Actually, rob s, the more I think about it, the more I think what I just said in previous paragraph is incorrect, and the more I'm coming around to your way of thinking on this, at least for a suppressed activity, simply because it doesn't take even 7.5" of barrel length, let alone 10", to push a 147 gr 9mm round up to its max velocity while still remaining subsonic (around 1,050 fps), and so that being the case, why NOT have a shorter, handier, more maneuverable barrel length, as long as you're going to do the SBR thing anyway. But again, if you're gonna get the suppressor, too, then everything you say makes sense. If you're not, and the whole world for 1 mile in any direction is gonna know you're shooting, may as well use a 16" EBR/carbine (intermediate caliber).

Is a 9mm flat and accurate to 100 yards plus? Oh, you'd better believe it. I hit the 100 yard 1/2 size pig with regularity with pistols, and a carbine adds much more to your practical accuracy (due to shoulder stock & sight radius).

Now, think on this with me (if you haven't already). If your suppressed pistol caliber carbine of choice is .45 acp, not 9x19mm, then it *does* take 10-12 or more inches of bbl length (I believe) to get a 230 grainer whizzing along at 1,050, so while the 7.5 SBR might make sense with 9mm, I'd prefer to maximize my velocity the most possible while still remaining subsonic, and have the bigger oomph of the .45 acp. In fact, the Kriss Super V, if they would make it into a bullpup, slap about a 12" bbl and a suppressor on it - we'd be cookin with butane then!

 

[Alpine Storm]

9mm carbin

They were designed for urban areas where the trajectory of a 5.56 is not desirable. With my .45 Nexus suppressor, it sounds like a .22 even with standard ammo. And although I haven't clocked them, I would bet that you are getting another 200 fps out of the 16" barrel. (vs 4")

People always say that the 9mm isn't that devastating of a round. It's plenty violent. I did a little test with several layers of Levis and a Christmas ham. Shooting it lengthwise, it sailed clean through, and made a dramatic exit. Two in the sternum would put any intruder right on his fanny.

I shoot mine in Training as it is much less expensive to feen than my other ARs'

 

[rob_s]

Edit: Actually, rob s, the more I think about it, the more I think what I just said in previous paragraph is incorrect, and the more I'm coming around to your way of thinking on this, at least for a suppressed activity, simply because it doesn't take even 7.5" of barrel length, let alone 10", to push a 147 gr 9mm round up to its max velocity while still remaining subsonic (around 1,050 fps), and so that being the case, why NOT have a shorter, handier, more maneuverable barrel length, as long as you're going to do the SBR thing anyway. But again, if you're gonna get the suppressor, too, then everything you say makes sense. If you're not, and the whole world for 1 mile in any direction is gonna know you're shooting, may as well use a 16" EBR/carbine (intermediate caliber).

Basically this is what I was getting at.

When I bought my first 5.56 SBR, the only reason I bought it was to be able to mount a can and still be shorter than a 16" AR.

However, I started using the SBR without the can and came around to how nice and handy the rifle is with an SBR barrel on it and bought another SBR to leave unsuppressed.

I originally thought that the only reason to have an SBR at all was to put a can on it and still be under 16" of barrel. I no longer think that way. There are maneuverability advantages to an SBR or VSBR when working indoors. Some people inevitably reply "why not just use a pistol?", and the answer is that you can get better, faster, more accurate hits with a carbine with a red-dot on it than you can with a pistol. I see this month in and month out at our two-gun matches where a guy is getting good hits with his carbine and then transitions to pistol and misses the same target completely.

Now, think on this with me (if you haven't already). If your suppressed pistol caliber carbine of choice is .45 acp, not 9x19mm, then it *does* take 10-12 or more inches of bbl length (I believe) to get a 230 grainer whizzing along at 1,050, so while the 7.5 SBR might make sense with 9mm, I'd prefer to maximize my velocity the most possible while still remaining subsonic, and have the bigger oomph of the .45 acp. In fact, the Kriss Super V, if they would make it into a bullpup, slap about a 12" bbl and a suppressor on it - we'd be cookin with butane then!

The suppressed .45 SBR is a nice idea, but in practice .45 doesn't tend to suppress as well as 9mm (due to the large bore size, or so I'm told), and the obvious lack of any common .45 carbines to SBR puts a damper on the plan as well.

Barring any legal concerns etc. my first pick for an indoor gun would be a 7.5" 9mm AR carbine with a Surefire X300 and an Aimpoint. There is a greater issue of potential wall penetration with the 9mm but that is a totally separate concern.

 

[Speedo66]

"I did a little test with several layers of Levis and a Christmas ham"

Any comments from your guests about the extra holes in the ham?

Hey, the K-T Sub2k is fun, what other justification do you need?

Any other uses are just icing on the cake.

 

[ultradoc]

A buddy of mine has a 9mm high Point [I think] and he hates it. It's cheap and it jams.

 

[rondog]

A buddy of mine has a 9mm high Point [I think] and he hates it. It's cheap and it jams.

I see you're in Ohio, is your buddy also? I think Hi-Points are made in Ohio, why doesn't he take advantage of the H-P lifetime warranty and let them fix it for him? I certainly would, it's probably something simple. Might even be an earlier version that had some known problems, they might even completely replace it, they've been known to do that.