What would you do

[gym]

This happened laat night near my home:
Two men walk into a cell phone store, they get online, and pull guns out, announce a robbery. A short time later 2 more join them. What would you think is the proper way to handle it.
What would you say was the right thing to do, if you were armed. Nothing or something, only one customer in the store and the help behind the counter.No one was hurt, but you would not have known about the second pair or if they intended to shoot or not.
This was a busy store normally near the largest hi end mall in the area.

 

[heeler]

The odds would be heavily tilted in the BG's favor as there are four of them and one of you.
No thanks.
Did the other two who joined also have guns?
The only way I would do anything at all is if they started shooting.
At that point you may or may not survive.

 

[gym]

I believe they all did. But it's unclear form our local news, happened atTown Center Mall in Boca Raton, people who were interviewed by the news, were shocked that this kind of crime would happen in such a high police preseance area. As you may have heard there have been two murder kidnappings there in past years, that made national news. The area is heavilly patrolled, especially around the holidays. They took cash and phones, a big risk for 4 guys, with little reward. Only one customer in the store to rob aside from the help.
Maybe it's a practice run for a bigger crime, but all were shown on camera, and made no attempt to hide their faces. That would have scared me most, usually when a bad guy commits a crime on camera, he uses a disguise, these guys are all over the news now.

 

[2zulu1]

If you aren't clear what happened or the timeline, then how can you expect a definitive response?

 

[JustinJ]

Far too few details to formulate a response. Where am i standing, where are they standing, what's behind them, is there available cover, did they notice me, even what guns they are wielding?

 

[gym]

I'm clear on what happened. Two men got on line at the window, to speak to a sales person, they then pulled guns, "does it matter what kind of guns", they were hand guns. They told everyone to hand over their cash and jewelry, two more, armed men, with pistols, came in as soon as the first two pulled out their guns, that's all you would know aside form where you were standing, "which could be anywhere in the section for waiting customers, I assume you have been in a "T mobile" or similar store.
You don't get a lot of time during a robbery, it's either you act or don't act.
Wherever you were standing is irrelevent as you would have been in an exposed area, in a 1500 sq ft store, "aprox". Half of which is just for staff. Usually when a perp walks into a store, they take a few seconds to see where everyone is before drawing their guns, you may not have seen anything until the guns were out and the men started giving commands.
Some people watch everyone some don't, I can't assume which type you are, only the facts as presented on the news story.

 

[JustinJ]

I'm clear on what happened. Two men got on line at the window, to speak to a sales person, they then pulled guns, "does it matter what kind of guns", they were hand guns.

Yeah, it does matter. Knowing they are handguns most importantly as my decision to or when to engage is certainly going to influenced differently by a shotgun vs a rusty 22 revolver.

They told everyone to hand over their cash and jewelry, two more, armed men, with pistols, came in as soon as the first two pulled out their guns, that's all you would know aside form where you were standing

And where i'm standing is still important. I've been in phone stores, some have dividing walls, some have back hallways to an emergency exit, some have counter displays.

You don't get a lot of time during a robbery, it's either you act or don't act.

Okay, but u still get some. There is some between the start and the finish of robbery and at any point a person could act. Also, are they looking at me as the guns are drawn?

Just as important to my location is the location of the robbers relative to potential innocent victims. If directly behind the robbers relative to my position is a sidewalk full of people that is obviously going to be a major factor. Or is my back to the front door where additional robbers would not be seen entering?

There is no black and white answer to a question full of countless variables. Obviously one must act quickly, if at all, and it will always be without as much info as one would like but in that situation some key factors could be determined to base a decision on.

 

[2zulu1]

Online to me means internet.

The news report is unclear and we don't have the investigator's report.

Thus far we have two guys (age and description unknown) enter a phone store in a high traffic mall, get on the internet and then state "a robbery" to one customer and an unknown number of employees. Subsequently, two more men (age, description and weapon possession unknown) enter the store.

 

[Teachu2]

Taking on armed robbers is an absolute last resort - as in "If I don't engage these targets NOW, they will kill me/the person they are directing the hostility toward." If it's JUST a robbery, escalating it is foolish and exposes you to liability. You are not a LEO.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Just for clarity's sake, there is a huge difference between:

A short time later 2 more join them.

...and

came in as soon as the first two pulled out their guns

I was also confused as to why they would get online and announce a robbery to whoever they were chatting with...I was asking why the staff let them get online and if they were off-duty employees. I gather, from your later post, that you meant they had queued up for service

 

[Skribs]

Yeah, it does matter. Knowing they are handguns most importantly as my decision to or when to engage is certainly going to influenced differently by a shotgun vs a rusty 22 revolver.

That rusty .22 revolver can still kill you just as dead.
I read "online" as "in line".

I don't know about some of you other folk, but considering that I ranked way down in Novice in IDPA, I'm not too sure of my own skills in this situation. Even if I had a clear line of sight to the robbers, I'm much more likely to try and stay hidden and call 911 if I can than take them all on myself. If I did hear gunshots, though, I would do my best to bring my gun to bear. No point in complying if they're actively shooting.

 

[JustinJ]

That rusty .22 revolver can still kill you just as dead.

So do you rely on a .22 for your home and personal defense? Probably not as there are options which improve your odds of successfully defending yourself if need be. What i am talking about is factors that would influence one's chances of not getting killed. Obviously a .22 can kill but if an injured felon spins around and fires i would much rather it be with a .22 than 00 buck shot.

Taking on armed robbers is an absolute last resort - as in "If I don't engage these targets NOW, they will kill me/the person they are directing the hostility toward."

I agree but there are two problems with this. First, one can not know if the bad guys are going to kill somebody. Second, the window to act may close if one waits too long. For example, if they turn their attention to you and start searching you for valuables while another points a gun its too late to act and you are about to lose your means of self defense.

 

[Skribs]

Justin, there's a difference between choosing a weapon because of how likely you feel it is to stop a target and how likely it is to kill. You're right, 00 buck is more likely to kill me, but that doesn't mean I'm safe from a .22. Do you practice gun safety more with a shotgun than with a .22? If you happen to sweep people with your .22, do they say "oh, it's just a .22, at least you didn't sweep me with a shotgun."

Second, the window to act may close if one waits too long. For example, if they turn their attention to you and start searching you for valuables while another points a gun its too late to act and you are about to lose your means of self defense.

You bring up a good point here.

 

[JohnBiltz]

4 on 1 is bad odds. Other customers in the store means some of them are going to get shot if everyone starts shooting and moving. I think I'd hand my wallet over. Its not worth getting an innocent or myself shot out of false pride. I'd also say this sounds pretty professional. Professional is good for avoiding anyone getting shot.

 

[beatledog7]

Armed or not, as the only patron in this scenario I can think of one possible action not yet mentioned: Run like blazes out the door. They won't be expecting that, and you'll probably make it clear. Once you've made it, call 9-1-1.

Why do we so often fail to consider the option to simply separate oneself from the threat?

 

[JustinJ]

Justin, there's a difference between choosing a weapon because of how likely you feel it is to stop a target and how likely it is to kill. You're right, 00 buck is more likely to kill me, but that doesn't mean I'm safe from a .22. Do you practice gun safety more with a shotgun than with a .22? If you happen to sweep people with your .22, do they say "oh, it's just a .22, at least you didn't sweep me with a shotgun."

I was not implying that a .22 is not lethal. What i'm saying is that if the bad guy does shoot at somebody he is far more likely to hit them with buckshot and the wound is much more likely to be fatal. A .22 also has a lower chance of killing some innocent bystander after penetrating several walls than say a .357 magnum. In deciding to act or not all one can do the chances of potential outcomes and then make the best possible decision. The chances of a favorable outcome go down if a bad guy is armed with a shotgun vs a 22 pistol. Obviously the potential for a bad outcome is present with either.

 

[JustinJ]

Armed or not, as the only patron in this scenario I can think of one possible action not yet mentioned: Run like blazes out the door. They won't be expecting that, and you'll probably make it clear. Once you've made it, call 9-1-1.

Or you'll get shot in the back.

 

[Skribs]

Running is only a good option if 1) you're faster and 2) they don't have a ranged weapon. That's why I disagree with the "just turn and run" tactic.

I was not implying that a .22 is not lethal. What i'm saying is that if the bad guy does shoot at somebody he is far more likely to hit them with buckshot and the wound is much more likely to be fatal. A .22 also has a lower chance of killing some innocent bystander after penetrating several walls than say a .357 magnum. In deciding to act or not all one can do the chances of potential outcomes and then make the best possible decision. The chances of a favorable outcome go down if a bad guy is armed with a shotgun vs a 22 pistol. Obviously the potential for a bad outcome is present with either.

I'll be honest, I won't know (especially in the heat of the moment) if he's got a .22 or a .357 trained on the shop owner. You also won't know if he has 00 buck or #9 birdshot in that shotgun.

 

[Teachu2]

I agree but there are two problems with this. First, one can not know if the bad guys are going to kill somebody. Second, the window to act may close if one waits too long. For example, if they turn their attention to you and start searching you for valuables while another points a gun its too late to act and you are about to lose your means of self defense.

Understood - but I'm assuming that no shots have been fired yet. If a shot has been fired, it's a somewhat different situation.

Pulling a gun on four armed robbers is an act of desperation, and has a high probability of resulting in loss of life - mine, theirs, innocent bystanders, etc. The chances of all four fleeing without firing a shot aren't good. The thought of engaging in a gun battle in a shopping mall with four armed bad guys and bystanders is a heavy one.

I'd have to be in the situation in order to tell you what I'd do, because we can't write a scenario that allows us enough data to read demeanor or intent. The two extremes are 1) I believe these BGs will do harm, so I open fire and 2) I believe these BGs are simple run-of-the-mill robbing hoods, and will not harm victims who comply. This truly is an all-or-nothing decision, because four thugs won't back down in front of each other. If I pull my gun, it's to shoot immediately and without warning, until the threat is over.

Fortunately, I don't live in Somalia or East Los Angeles.

 

[JustinJ]

I'll be honest, I won't know (especially in the heat of the moment) if he's got a .22 or a .357 trained on the shop owner. You also won't know if he has 00 buck or #9 birdshot in that shotgun.

Determining caliber of a handgun may be hard but it's pretty obvious if one is wielding a shotgun vs a handgun. And while i'm not inclined to be shot at by either the shotgun certainly causes a higher degree of concern without knowing the exact load.

 

[Skribs]

Pulling a gun on four armed robbers is an act of desperation, and has a high probability of resulting in loss of life - mine, theirs, innocent bystanders, etc. The chances of all four fleeing without firing a shot aren't good. The thought of engaging in a gun battle in a shopping mall with four armed bad guys and bystanders is a heavy one.

I'm more concerned with my life and that of innocent bystanders than the thugs. I'm not saying I think they deserve to die or that I would shoot to kill, but my concern in this situation would be what is least risky to myself and the other victims. You are right, though. There is a duality here; a pair of differing opinions that will not be 100% right, making it very difficult to argue.

 

[newbuckeye]

In Ohio in a verizion store, you would stand there and be robbed like everybody else. All their stores are gun free zones.

Too bad the BG's didn't see the sign. Their wouldn't have been a robbery if they had. :banghead::banghead:

 

[beatledog7]

I'm not saying running is always the best option, and certainly not for every person. The slow-moving and the big-target types might be better off avoiding it, but since I'm neither, I keep it in my kit bag as an option to be considered.

The best scenario involving armed BGs in a store is one that does not involve me. If I wasn't able to avoid being in there at the wrong time, I might still be able to achieve "not being there." If I make it, the BGs may well decide that with an escapee to call the police, the whole thing is a bust. They might choose to cut their losses and flee with no further action against anyone.

Military personnel are trained and sworn to always try to avoid capture and if captured to try to escape. There are many reasons for being always looking for a way to escape, not the least of which is to keep their captors (the BGs) off their game plan.

If these BGs were desperate enough to take shots at me as I slipped away or to shoot the clerk because I got away, they were probably going to kill us both anyway. I'd prefer taking my chances attempting to escape over being executed.

 

[JustinJ]

Too bad the BG's didn't see the sign. Their wouldn't have been a robbery if they had.

They realize robbers will not abide by the signs. Some stores, often at their insurance provider's insistence, hang the signs because they feel it is safer to comply with armed robbers than to resist. They feel it is much safer to comply with a robber's demands than for someone to resist as it endangers innocent bystanders and most robbers leave without hurting anybody. Statistically they are probably right but i personally don't like the idea of being at the mercy of an armed felon.

 

[Skribs]

If these BGs were desperate enough to take shots at me as I slipped away or to shoot the clerk because I got away, they were probably going to kill us both anyway. I'd prefer taking my chances attempting to escape over being executed.

And then there's the chance that by changing up their game plan, you become a threat worth shooting. I haven't been in a life-or-death situation like this, but I know that in most circumstances, it is when the plan starts to fall apart that people react to instinct instead of the plan.