whats with spray and pray?
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ljnowell
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I didn't compare them either. I've shot both IDPA and USPSA also. I'm pointing out that many people have a misconception that bullseye shooting is slow shooting at about one minute per shot with a live full of old men. That couldn't be further from the truth.
d2wing
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I guess it is fun for some. Not so much for me as I have fired a variety of full auto weapons in the military. An ammo dump on a semi auto doesn't do anything for me and I feel kinda sorry for the guys that do it. I only object when they hog the range and use muzzlebrakes. Not to say I would never do it. An awful lot of guys own AR's, FAL's or AK's and other semi autos and like to play at war. from there targets I guess they have little interest in accuracy or any real effectiveness. I guess I don't care except when they interfere with my range time.
As an expert with the M-60 and real M-16 I know a person can be quite accurate with full auto and semi auto weapons, but it takes skill and proper training. It is not easy and I was the only one in two of the different companies I served with.
As an expert with the M-60 and real M-16 I know a person can be quite accurate with full auto and semi auto weapons, but it takes skill and proper training. It is not easy and I was the only one in two of the different companies I served with.
jerkface11
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Yeah they seem to prefer good ammo. I've seen piles of federal gold match .308 left at the range.
Mosin Bubba
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Every time I see those guys, I feel lucky that I'm not the one paying for their ammo.
The Old Fuff was brought up wrong.
he'd say, Dad... "Can I take out the .22?" If I was lucky he'd say, "Sure," get the rifle and a box of ammunition and pour about 10 or 12 cartridges into my open palm. :banghead:
But I learned to hit what I was shooting at each time I pulled the trigger.
One that doesn't is called a "miss," and accounts for nothing.
Making noise is seldom productive in and of itself, but more and more folks don't see it that way. To each their own.
he'd say, Dad... "Can I take out the .22?" If I was lucky he'd say, "Sure," get the rifle and a box of ammunition and pour about 10 or 12 cartridges into my open palm. :banghead:
But I learned to hit what I was shooting at each time I pulled the trigger.
One that doesn't is called a "miss," and accounts for nothing.
Making noise is seldom productive in and of itself, but more and more folks don't see it that way.
To each their own.Welding Rod
Member
I shot in a match yesterday that was 40 rounds in 2 minutes. It was AWESOME!
60 seconds for 5 rounds offhand, drop to kneeling and shoot 5 more rounds, drop to prone, reload, and shoot 10 more rounds. Repeat for the second string of fire.
It was shot at 50 yards on bullseye type targets left over from our 200 yard CMP style highpower match earlier the same morning.
I shot a 389/400 - 16X to win the match.
I shoot highpower all the time, but this speed match is WAY more fun and takes every bit of the skill.
60 seconds for 5 rounds offhand, drop to kneeling and shoot 5 more rounds, drop to prone, reload, and shoot 10 more rounds. Repeat for the second string of fire.
It was shot at 50 yards on bullseye type targets left over from our 200 yard CMP style highpower match earlier the same morning.
I shot a 389/400 - 16X to win the match.
I shoot highpower all the time, but this speed match is WAY more fun and takes every bit of the skill.
TwinReverb
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I'll say that i used to focus on speed over accuracy. Until i learned that accuracy should come first, speed second. But speed is important, just that it's not everything.
Still, just as i believed that my hour of piano practice should be followed by non-serious time, time for only fun, i usually end up dumping one magazine into my targets as fast as i can. I work, then i play.
What i really want at my gun range is some flip targets. Just something to break up the monotony. Usually i get permission to use the alternate pistol range for el Presidente drills.
Still, just as i believed that my hour of piano practice should be followed by non-serious time, time for only fun, i usually end up dumping one magazine into my targets as fast as i can. I work, then i play.
What i really want at my gun range is some flip targets. Just something to break up the monotony. Usually i get permission to use the alternate pistol range for el Presidente drills.
sequins
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Personally I feel safe if someone can hit the paper no matter how fast they do it. If a guy is dumping a mag and his paper is clean I agree that's nerve wracking. I sometimes worry when I see an inexperienced shooter at the line.
One time I had a buddy who had just bought a pair of Glock 19s. We went to shoot on DNR land and I set up a target about 15 yards away and he proceeded to do an "akimbo" (Off hand and primary hand each holding a pistol, firing both one handed and point shooting / unaimed depending on how you look at it).
He fired all 30 rounds in less than 5 seconds and the target had one hole on it, located in the left shoulder of the silhouette target. It reminded me of the scene in "Commando" at the very end when Arnold storms the barracks and an entire barracks of troops empties their rifles at him and he only gets shot once in the shoulder. I thought to myself "holy crap, that was realistic"
One time I had a buddy who had just bought a pair of Glock 19s. We went to shoot on DNR land and I set up a target about 15 yards away and he proceeded to do an "akimbo" (Off hand and primary hand each holding a pistol, firing both one handed and point shooting / unaimed depending on how you look at it).
He fired all 30 rounds in less than 5 seconds and the target had one hole on it, located in the left shoulder of the silhouette target. It reminded me of the scene in "Commando" at the very end when Arnold storms the barracks and an entire barracks of troops empties their rifles at him and he only gets shot once in the shoulder. I thought to myself "holy crap, that was realistic"
chicharrones
needs more ammo
I hardly do mag dumps unless the target is closer and large enough for me to put all bullets from the mag dump into it. Shooting full auto is like that (rental experience only).
When I shoot, there are times for attempting tiny groups and there are times to land all rounds in a target and not worry about group sizes. Shooting for scores is usually somewhere in between for me.
When I shoot, there are times for attempting tiny groups and there are times to land all rounds in a target and not worry about group sizes. Shooting for scores is usually somewhere in between for me.
RetiredUSNChief
Member
Meh.
I guesx I'd have to be there and judge for myself, but it's not as if I (or most others here) haven't seen what you're describing.
And yeah, sometimes I get a little irritated, too. But so long as they're safe about it, I don't worry much. So they burn through a wallet full of ammo in an insanely short time. Sometimes that's just a fun thing to do, accuracy aside. I've been known to unload magazines as fast as I can pull the trigger, too, though I'm actually trying to hit the target and seeing how my control holds up, even while having fun.
And no need for you to apologize, either. Sometimes people do make us nervous doing that.
I guesx I'd have to be there and judge for myself, but it's not as if I (or most others here) haven't seen what you're describing.
And yeah, sometimes I get a little irritated, too. But so long as they're safe about it, I don't worry much. So they burn through a wallet full of ammo in an insanely short time. Sometimes that's just a fun thing to do, accuracy aside. I've been known to unload magazines as fast as I can pull the trigger, too, though I'm actually trying to hit the target and seeing how my control holds up, even while having fun.
And no need for you to apologize, either. Sometimes people do make us nervous doing that.
browningguy
Member
I'm not thinking that's so. When I practice for bullseye (pistol) or F-Class (rifle), then slow and steady is the way I practice. When I practice for 3 gun then it might look like spray and pray, but it's not. You don't actually have to be all that accurate for the speed shooting games, you just have to be putting everything in a 6" circle, and you need to learn to do that pretty fast.
Now I will agree that in general you see a lot of people at the range just blasting off ammo, generally the same people posting here about where can I buy the cheapest (insert here). But they are having fun, so as long as they are safe I'm ok with that.
tactikel
Member
shooting is always fun. The rule is 1 shot per second at my range, unless the R.O. Gives you permission (likely for Military or LE personnel practicing). I love the precision of putting 5 in 0.3 MOA, and the thrill of unloading 20 into a 10" paper plate at 50yards in 10 seconds, when I get the OK.
If I can afford the ammo, who's business is it what skill I am honing?
If I can afford the ammo, who's business is it what skill I am honing?
DeepSouth
Random Guy
It depends on what mood I'm in. Sometimes I'll take nice slow aimed shots trying to make a pretty cloverleaf target. Other times I'll grab the junk $300 AK with the slide fire on it and simply waste ammo.
Both are enjoyable to me at times, I do my shooting on my private land so I don't really have to worry about other shooters, if I did I'd certainly try to be respectful of them. I wouldn't try to see just how fast I can empty a drum next to a guy trying to make a pretty cloverleaf, because when I'm doing that I don't like distractions and someone blasting away like a (happy) maniac would be very distracting to me.
Thank goodness I can shoot on my own land.
Both are enjoyable to me at times, I do my shooting on my private land so I don't really have to worry about other shooters, if I did I'd certainly try to be respectful of them. I wouldn't try to see just how fast I can empty a drum next to a guy trying to make a pretty cloverleaf, because when I'm doing that I don't like distractions and someone blasting away like a (happy) maniac would be very distracting to me.
Thank goodness I can shoot on my own land.
USAF_Vet
Member
I tend to practice speed shooting drills. I'm more interested in combat effective shooting than putting rounds through one small hole. Once I have my sights dialed in and I know I'm hitting accurately, I'll transition to shooting faster, shooting while moving, shooting from various positions, shooting at multiple targets, and transitioning from long gun to pistol, and then wrap it all up with some reloading and failure drills.
To me, bench rest shooting is dull. I'll bench shoot to sight in deer rifles, which is limited to a few rounds to verify zero. But to me, shooting as described above is what I find fun and exciting. It may not be sub MOA accurate, but as long as it's vitals accurate under various conditions, that's all I think I'll ever need.
To me, bench rest shooting is dull. I'll bench shoot to sight in deer rifles, which is limited to a few rounds to verify zero. But to me, shooting as described above is what I find fun and exciting. It may not be sub MOA accurate, but as long as it's vitals accurate under various conditions, that's all I think I'll ever need.
Inebriated
Member
X-Rap said:
This.
There is some incredible ignorance going on in this thread.
wanderinwalker
Member
Another vote for "as long as it's safe and they're having fun, I'll allow it." I see (and hear) on a pretty regular basis people burning through magazines full of ammo very quickly. As long as they're going into the backstop, it's OK.
I've drifted away from the slow-and-steady rifle shooting myself the last few years. While I understand and appreciate (and used to have) the skill, it does get a bit tedious to me to do it every time a rifle is at the range. I've also learned there is a lot of skill and technique required to shoot close targets quickly, with accuracy. There is also quite a bit of difference between putting rounds on target with speed, versus pulling the trigger to make noise as fast as possible. It would also pay to note that my favorite shooters are a lever action .30-30 and an AR-15 carbine. Either of which are doing really well to shoot 5 rounds into 1.5 to 2-MOA rested. But they work better for me shooting offhand and sitting than most of my "more accurate" rifles ever did.
As for learning to be fast versus learning to be accurate, I've always heard that it is easier to teach somebody who learned traditional bull's eye techniques to shoot faster.
I've drifted away from the slow-and-steady rifle shooting myself the last few years. While I understand and appreciate (and used to have) the skill, it does get a bit tedious to me to do it every time a rifle is at the range. I've also learned there is a lot of skill and technique required to shoot close targets quickly, with accuracy. There is also quite a bit of difference between putting rounds on target with speed, versus pulling the trigger to make noise as fast as possible. It would also pay to note that my favorite shooters are a lever action .30-30 and an AR-15 carbine. Either of which are doing really well to shoot 5 rounds into 1.5 to 2-MOA rested. But they work better for me shooting offhand and sitting than most of my "more accurate" rifles ever did.
As for learning to be fast versus learning to be accurate, I've always heard that it is easier to teach somebody who learned traditional bull's eye techniques to shoot faster.
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Ash
Member
The only time it causes me to gripe is when rapid fire guys end up hitting my target. A fellow brought his girlfriend to a range I was at (a public US Forest Service range) and they rapid-fired a shotgun. Peppered my target a few times. Yeah, thanks buddy.
Nature Boy
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Hell, they can cover me up with brass, particularly .308. I need all I can get.
Burn it up boys!
jmorris
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Yeah, I was given a Benjamin .22 air rifle when I was too small, had to lean it against a tree to get even a few pumps in it at first. Enough of a work out that you didn't just waist it.
Don't have the same problems these days and though wasteful full auto will put a smile on most faces, so it's not totally useless.
Zaydok Allen
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If they aren't putting me in danger with their behavior, I couldn't care less about what other people do. If you don't like the way people at that range behave, go to a different range.
Practicing speed shooting is a good idea and I have been working on shooting as fast as I can with my handguns quite a bit in the last year or so. Why, because speed will save my life in a bad encounter. Is that spraying and praying? NO
I shoot in the woods alone because I don't particularly enjoy people hanging around when I'm trying to improve my skills. Maybe something like that would work for you.
Practicing speed shooting is a good idea and I have been working on shooting as fast as I can with my handguns quite a bit in the last year or so. Why, because speed will save my life in a bad encounter. Is that spraying and praying? NO
I shoot in the woods alone because I don't particularly enjoy people hanging around when I'm trying to improve my skills. Maybe something like that would work for you.
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Inebriated said:
More a communication issue, methinks.
Without actually being there to see it, "spray and pray" can be interpreted in many different ways. Some assume it implies a trigger finger pulling off a mindless mag dump as fast as possible with little regard for the target, while another might think it's anything other than formal target shooting. And what appears to be S&P, may, in fact, be skilled and effective combat accuracy at combat speed.
The OP was pretty vague, so we're reading everyone's personal thoughts and values on what the term "spray and pray" means to them.
Precision shooting is an great skill. However, "Safety" does not equal "slow shooting with a bolt action only." That is a falsehood.
Dumping a magazine to gain fire superiority doesn't mean you get it, either. That is another falsehood spread among those who cherry pick the dynamic aspects of combat shooting but don't understand the strategy.
The issue is understanding the military's change in tactics to have increased volume of fire. And it is, in part, due to the fact that more bullets in the air does mean more hits - in fact, that bullets never aimed at the soldier get hits a lot more often than many want to admit.
That is the specific reason we went to smaller caliber battle rifles with double or triple the amount of ammo on the soldier. It does NOT mean that the soldier just blasts away randomly with no intent to aim.
However, with Hollywood and only 1 in 100 who have served now, the memo isn't getting to the shooters. So they have a notion that they can mag dump and still get a hit to stop the "enemy." They see it as a tactic to use against a single target when it's meant for use on a battlefield that has depth, with lines of advancing troops. It's the ones to the rear who are hit by unaimed fire - ones who get up and run into it.
So, in the American idiom of spray and pray at individual targets, it's not what was originally intended. However, from the perspective of a careful single bug hole shooter, even when it's done right, it's still different.
That target that looks like it was hit by a shotgun? Every hit inside an 18 inch circle is a HIT. That is a bullet in a body, reducing that individuals ability to continue fighting. If you get two hits in that 18MOA target, it's two bullets in a live person. Not paper.
That's why military standard is a 2MOA rifle which can hit an 18MOA target out to 500m inside a ten inch circle. At that range, of course you have to aim, and take some effort doing it. But - as combat research explicitly showed from WWI, soldiers in combat rarely take the long shots - because soldiers in combat aren't stupid enough to be visible long enough to BE shot.
The result is that most shots in combat were happening at a range of about 125 meters, when they would be visible in the existing terrain (and using cover for all its worth,) maneuvering toward them, at best in three second jumps.
Go shoot a bolt action against ten randomly appearing targets from 50 to 125m that remain up for three seconds at most, then drop down again. The first thing you learn is that you better lower your expectations getting tight groups, and that ANY hit is better than wasting the opportunity. Second, that a bolt action doesn't work well with you - it forces you to lose the sight picture manipulating the action, and if you get back to back targets you get no shot at the second.
This is why every armed force in the world dropped bolt actions, and then moved to smaller caliber cartridges. And it also resulted in less recoil - which enhances the average humans willingness to pull the trigger.
Once again, take that large caliber bolt gun and shoot 300 rounds in less than an hour. Most won't even try. Yet with an AR or AK it's a half hour or less, and the more serious shooters will put the majority of the hits in the black. That's 280 bullets in human bodies out of 300.
Combat is NOT precision shooting, and "Safety = slow" is a prescription to getting killed. Practice what you like - but by no means are most shooters doing it realistically or even effectively when you blur the situations and complain "they" aren't doing it your way.
Your way may be completely wrong for their purposes.
Dumping a magazine to gain fire superiority doesn't mean you get it, either. That is another falsehood spread among those who cherry pick the dynamic aspects of combat shooting but don't understand the strategy.
The issue is understanding the military's change in tactics to have increased volume of fire. And it is, in part, due to the fact that more bullets in the air does mean more hits - in fact, that bullets never aimed at the soldier get hits a lot more often than many want to admit.
That is the specific reason we went to smaller caliber battle rifles with double or triple the amount of ammo on the soldier. It does NOT mean that the soldier just blasts away randomly with no intent to aim.
However, with Hollywood and only 1 in 100 who have served now, the memo isn't getting to the shooters. So they have a notion that they can mag dump and still get a hit to stop the "enemy." They see it as a tactic to use against a single target when it's meant for use on a battlefield that has depth, with lines of advancing troops. It's the ones to the rear who are hit by unaimed fire - ones who get up and run into it.
So, in the American idiom of spray and pray at individual targets, it's not what was originally intended. However, from the perspective of a careful single bug hole shooter, even when it's done right, it's still different.
That target that looks like it was hit by a shotgun? Every hit inside an 18 inch circle is a HIT. That is a bullet in a body, reducing that individuals ability to continue fighting. If you get two hits in that 18MOA target, it's two bullets in a live person. Not paper.
That's why military standard is a 2MOA rifle which can hit an 18MOA target out to 500m inside a ten inch circle. At that range, of course you have to aim, and take some effort doing it. But - as combat research explicitly showed from WWI, soldiers in combat rarely take the long shots - because soldiers in combat aren't stupid enough to be visible long enough to BE shot.
The result is that most shots in combat were happening at a range of about 125 meters, when they would be visible in the existing terrain (and using cover for all its worth,) maneuvering toward them, at best in three second jumps.
Go shoot a bolt action against ten randomly appearing targets from 50 to 125m that remain up for three seconds at most, then drop down again. The first thing you learn is that you better lower your expectations getting tight groups, and that ANY hit is better than wasting the opportunity. Second, that a bolt action doesn't work well with you - it forces you to lose the sight picture manipulating the action, and if you get back to back targets you get no shot at the second.
This is why every armed force in the world dropped bolt actions, and then moved to smaller caliber cartridges. And it also resulted in less recoil - which enhances the average humans willingness to pull the trigger.
Once again, take that large caliber bolt gun and shoot 300 rounds in less than an hour. Most won't even try. Yet with an AR or AK it's a half hour or less, and the more serious shooters will put the majority of the hits in the black. That's 280 bullets in human bodies out of 300.
Combat is NOT precision shooting, and "Safety = slow" is a prescription to getting killed. Practice what you like - but by no means are most shooters doing it realistically or even effectively when you blur the situations and complain "they" aren't doing it your way.
Your way may be completely wrong for their purposes.
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