Where is your breaking point?
- Thread starter Monkeyleg
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oldfart
Member
Folks, there's a lot of good stuff here and some not-so-good stuff too, but my breaking point is going to be different than my neighbor's. That's true with all of us. It's a form of marginalization that effectively divides us until we cannot even support ourselves.
Nearly every day we read about some poor schmuck who goes postal and pops a sheriff's deputy or an inspector from some alphabet agency that's trying to put him out of business. What do we do? We bend over backwards to believe the official news release which states the perp was a lunatic who had a grudge against the government.
Hell, we've all got a grudge against the government. Why in the name of Thor don't we go help him out instead of sitting behind our keyboards and nodding like bobble-heads at every pronouncement that comes out of the spoon-fed media? Remember Waco? Remember how Koresh was accused of molesting children? Was it ever proven? No, but there are people right here on this board who will repeat those accusations as if they were Holy Writ.
Until some of us decide that Fred Schmuck's line in the sand is as important as their own we're all sheep! We gunnies may be the black sheep of the flock, but we all band together when the wolf shows up.
Sure, we buy guns. We also stockpile ammo and wear camo, but for what? As soon as Big Brother passes a law that curtails some previously accepted activity we all turn to.... Big Brother! We write letters to our Congressmen and Senators as if they're going to help us. They were the ones who screwed us in the first place!
As long as the Keyboard Commando Corps continues to find good, logical reasons NOT to go to the aid of ol' Fred he'll die alone and be remembered as an anti-government terrorist and maybe even a child molester.
When I was younger I considered the possibility of joining a revolution. As the years passed, my imagined role in such a scenario necessarily became more restricted. Now, if blue helmets were to show up down at the corner I doubt I could get off more than one or two shots before their bullets found me. But I could make those two count! And who knows, I might just go help Fred too. Anybody else?
Kingcreek
Member
We may all have our individual breaking point, but until something gels, it is just so much mental exercise.
If a charismatic leader emerges to communicate the truth, and can motivate large numbers of citizens across the spectrum, and can engage the media in thier own game, maybe then you will see the tide turn.
I am not that person. Are you? Charlie Heston had a shot at it but who do we see out there now that can rally the people who feel as we do, and ignite a passion for freedom in Average Joe Citizen?
Our individual breaking points are insignificant on a national scale. Any one of us could reach that point and be the top story in the evening news, but that won't really change things for the better.
viva la revolution
If a charismatic leader emerges to communicate the truth, and can motivate large numbers of citizens across the spectrum, and can engage the media in thier own game, maybe then you will see the tide turn.
I am not that person. Are you? Charlie Heston had a shot at it but who do we see out there now that can rally the people who feel as we do, and ignite a passion for freedom in Average Joe Citizen?
Our individual breaking points are insignificant on a national scale. Any one of us could reach that point and be the top story in the evening news, but that won't really change things for the better.
viva la revolution
Thin Black Line
Member
Which is nothing new and all are forms of socioeconomic control. Any government
--any type of rule by man-- has always used economic control as its preferred
method rather than the use of actual physical force. Called it civilization,
evolution, whatever. It's a combination of coercion and incentives.
It becomes very problematic in a society when there are two different sets
of rules for Us and Them. We've noticed this big time when it came to those
who could get CCWs and or had armed bodyguards in NYC, DC, etc while
telling us that we needed to be unarmed.
However, sometimes gunowners get far too focused on their objects and not
enough on the big economic picture from where their political life and the laws
that control it flow.
Another true story in my lifelong education to illustrate the economical and
political point I'm trying to make:
A friend tells me the town will soon be issuing 1X,250,000 in municipal bonds
at 7%. At the time banks were doing something like 2.x%. So I'm thinking
it would be great to break the nest egg and buy a bond or two. Now I'm not
a complete idiot thinking these are $100 or even $1000 bonds so I asked him
about when I could get a $10000 bond.
He smiles and says "These bonds are already ear-marked for selected buyers.
Besides, you can't afford the issuing price."
Me: "What? How much are they....wait a second --these things haven't even
been sold yet and what do you mean they're already ear-marked?!"
Friend: "We're talking about bonds that will be $X,000,000 each. And,
yes, we know who's getting them in advance. I can tell you they will include
Bank X, Bank Y, Factory Z, etc, etc."
Me: "So the average person who wants to buy something that yields better
than the bank and plan better for retirement is out of the game."
Friend: "Yes."
Me: "Why are you even telling me this?"
Friend: "Well, there is one wealthy individual who gets a bond for the
$250,000 remainder."
Me: "I still don't have that kind of money. But that person is already tagged,
right?"
Friend: "That's right. You don't even have enough to sit at the table on this
deal."
Me: "BTW, didn't the town give Factory Z a lot of tax breaks?"
Friend: (getting a great big smile) "Yes."
Me: "Isn't this the same factory that's gone from 3 shifts to 1 over the last
few years? Isn't this the same one talking about moving production to country X?!"
Friend: "Yes. Keep in mind that this factory still has pension obligations to
retired workers here and in other locations, though."
Me: (quiet for a moment as conflicting thoughts of social obligations vs the
"somebody still pays for the difference" jumble around) "Something still doesn't
feel right, though. The town should still be doing this sale differently. I and
the little old lady down the street should have as much right to access 7%
for our retirement as the employees of X, Y, and Z. Let them do it as individuals."
Friend: "How municipal bonds are offered is much larger than this little town.
This is a tiny part of larger events taking place outside of here. There's a
certain balance between companies and people."
Me: "I understand that, but it's also people --individuals-- who run these
companies and seem to have more say than the average person. They are
just as fallible as the next person."
Friend: "I agree. And when they screw up, it's big."
Me: "Millions --if not billions-- of dollars and affecting thousands of lives."
Friend: "Right. There are risks, but how else would you manage things on
such a large scale?"
Me: "I'm not sure --just that it needs to be more geared towards the individual."
KINGMAX
Member
Does TSHTF scenario mean back to the minute-men of ole
When you say, 'when the shtf' does that mean we are back to the ole days' of the minute men militia???
When you say, 'when the shtf' does that mean we are back to the ole days' of the minute men militia???
PershingRiflesC-7
Member
Read every post...
in this thread and believe OldFart @#77 pretty much nailed it. The real story is that we are all a bunch of frogs in the pot and some are noticing the increasing heat sooner than others. Some posters have noted the slippage of freedom arising from certain government acts at various points in history. A critical study of US history will reveal the slippage began before the turn of the 19th century even though the Constitution and Bill of Rights had barely been instituted (1789). One example of early slippage or "breaking point" as it has been termed in this thread was the Whiskey Rebellion.
Governments are blunt instruments of force and control, absolutely antithetical to freedom as a pure concept. One poster mentioned getting principled persons into office, a la Mr. Smith Goes to Washington. Here is a news flash: governments are where principles go to die. Pragmatism rules the day, politics is about the possible -- not the perfect.
Though some on the "Shooter" thread don't like it due to some of the actors' politics, watching it might give you some insight to a cynical view of government and the exercise of power, force, and control.
in this thread and believe OldFart @#77 pretty much nailed it. The real story is that we are all a bunch of frogs in the pot and some are noticing the increasing heat sooner than others. Some posters have noted the slippage of freedom arising from certain government acts at various points in history. A critical study of US history will reveal the slippage began before the turn of the 19th century even though the Constitution and Bill of Rights had barely been instituted (1789). One example of early slippage or "breaking point" as it has been termed in this thread was the Whiskey Rebellion.
Governments are blunt instruments of force and control, absolutely antithetical to freedom as a pure concept. One poster mentioned getting principled persons into office, a la Mr. Smith Goes to Washington. Here is a news flash: governments are where principles go to die. Pragmatism rules the day, politics is about the possible -- not the perfect.
Though some on the "Shooter" thread don't like it due to some of the actors' politics, watching it might give you some insight to a cynical view of government and the exercise of power, force, and control.
I’ve read through this entire thread and share the frustration with everyone. Yes, everyone it seems has their own breaking point and solution. It saddens me to see our personal freedoms erode and I worry for our children.
My personal solution is I believe it is time for a third party. Republican/Democrat, just a blur between the two. The old ‘ lesser of two evils ‘ just doesn’t get it anymore. “ you’re just throwing your vote away “ to vote third party. I’m at my breaking point and I am fighting with my vote. I will never vote for Rudy/Hillary ( insert any current frontrunner )
Give me a Ron Paul, Fred Thompson candidate and I don’t mean just the primaries.
My vote will count.
My personal solution is I believe it is time for a third party. Republican/Democrat, just a blur between the two. The old ‘ lesser of two evils ‘ just doesn’t get it anymore. “ you’re just throwing your vote away “ to vote third party. I’m at my breaking point and I am fighting with my vote. I will never vote for Rudy/Hillary ( insert any current frontrunner )
Give me a Ron Paul, Fred Thompson candidate and I don’t mean just the primaries.
My vote will count.
xd9fan
Member
agreed
oldfart
Member
"Give me a Ron Paul, Fred Thompson candidate and I don’t mean just the primaries.
My vote will count."
I would prefer Ron Paul but will settle for Fred Thompson. No others need apply.
My vote will count."
I would prefer Ron Paul but will settle for Fred Thompson. No others need apply.
Waitone
Member
For all those holding hope out for Fred Thompson, what will happen to your enthusiasm for Fred when it comes out he is a globalist (I draw a sharp distinction between a globalist and a capitalist) and a member of the same good ol' boys club as is Newt Gingrich and everyone else in the DC septic tank.
I'm looking for substantive change as opposed to cosmetics. A new coat of paint ain't gonna fix the rot.
I'm looking for substantive change as opposed to cosmetics. A new coat of paint ain't gonna fix the rot.
Vitamin G
Member
joab said:
I wonder how many people are just like us, waiting for a leader.
I'm no leader. I'm just a decent shot.
xd9fan
Member
The Parker case could be it. May....maybe not. But if the SCOT"U"S play it like the Kelo case......
I believe it was author Claire Wolfe
Who said "America is at that awkward stage, too late to work within the system, and too early to begin shooting the bastards". Or something to that effect.
I think eveyone here who hasn't already, should get themselves a copy of "Unintended Consequences", read it and think deeply.
Breaking point? The breaking point is when the bring out the handcuffs. This is clear, and easy. What is concealed and difficult is recognising the handcuffs for what they are.
Too much of this country thinks they don't have a dog in this fight, and until they do, they won;t even begin to think about doing anything.
Look at what happened under Clinton, with Ruby Ridge and the Branch Davidians at Waco, well, the press told us they were just nuts, so there was nothing much for us to get excited about. And that is what will happen when the next ones occur. Doesn't matter which party is in control, it will be the forces of "reason and progress" against a bunch of "nuts", and the bulk of the nation will do nothing but watch.
Maybe, one day, there will be a "Wilson Blair" or some one like him, to give us a call to action. But who will listen? Who will be allowed to listen? And of those, who will actually do something? And will it make things better, or worse?
I can't say, my crystal ball has been disconnected, due to an unpaid karmic debt. But I can say this, When it gets to the point that they come for me, they better bring a lunch.
Who said "America is at that awkward stage, too late to work within the system, and too early to begin shooting the bastards". Or something to that effect.
I think eveyone here who hasn't already, should get themselves a copy of "Unintended Consequences", read it and think deeply.
Breaking point? The breaking point is when the bring out the handcuffs. This is clear, and easy. What is concealed and difficult is recognising the handcuffs for what they are.
Too much of this country thinks they don't have a dog in this fight, and until they do, they won;t even begin to think about doing anything.
Look at what happened under Clinton, with Ruby Ridge and the Branch Davidians at Waco, well, the press told us they were just nuts, so there was nothing much for us to get excited about. And that is what will happen when the next ones occur. Doesn't matter which party is in control, it will be the forces of "reason and progress" against a bunch of "nuts", and the bulk of the nation will do nothing but watch.
Maybe, one day, there will be a "Wilson Blair" or some one like him, to give us a call to action. But who will listen? Who will be allowed to listen? And of those, who will actually do something? And will it make things better, or worse?
I can't say, my crystal ball has been disconnected, due to an unpaid karmic debt. But I can say this, When it gets to the point that they come for me, they better bring a lunch.
ctdonath
Member
Take heart before breaking.
- CCW permits have gone from almost impossible to "shall issue" in most states.
- 2 states are "Vermont carry".
- the only true federal ban is on machineguns.
- inflation has brought the NFA tax down to a very manageable $200.
- most (?) states have very tolerable restrictions (easy permits and no gun registration).
- DC Circuit court declared the 2nd Amendment an individual right.
- NJ high court did the same a week later.
- The Zumbo incident demonstrated huge grass-roots mobilization in 3 days flat.
and so on.
Most gun control is actually local/state. Federally, there is very little save save obnoxious paperwork, NFA, and 922(o). If you don't like where you are, MOVE. Much of the country is much better, and getting better. I moved from NY to GA - the change in freedom is palpable; I went from strict regulation an and comprehensive prohibitions to no registration and a suppressed SBR in my safe ... I suggest you do the same.
Much of the "breaking point" methinks has much more to do with personal exhaustion, of trying so hard so long to obey and cooperate only to get smacked upside the head with one more restriction & obfuscation after another. Law only works insofar as the law-abiding are inclined to be cooperative; when lawmakers make it too hard to cooperate, the law-abiding stop being so (not choosing to be criminals, but made so by an impossible litany of oppression).
All that said, I'd say my own breaking point may be SCOTUS reversing Parker (or a comparable event).
AWB II would probably the breaking point for a LOT of people; I'd just move firmly into NFA territory and go after 922(o) ("I'm goin' after the big stuff while you Dems get pummeled by everyone else...").
- CCW permits have gone from almost impossible to "shall issue" in most states.
- 2 states are "Vermont carry".
- the only true federal ban is on machineguns.
- inflation has brought the NFA tax down to a very manageable $200.
- most (?) states have very tolerable restrictions (easy permits and no gun registration).
- DC Circuit court declared the 2nd Amendment an individual right.
- NJ high court did the same a week later.
- The Zumbo incident demonstrated huge grass-roots mobilization in 3 days flat.
and so on.
Most gun control is actually local/state. Federally, there is very little save save obnoxious paperwork, NFA, and 922(o). If you don't like where you are, MOVE. Much of the country is much better, and getting better. I moved from NY to GA - the change in freedom is palpable; I went from strict regulation an and comprehensive prohibitions to no registration and a suppressed SBR in my safe ... I suggest you do the same.
Much of the "breaking point" methinks has much more to do with personal exhaustion, of trying so hard so long to obey and cooperate only to get smacked upside the head with one more restriction & obfuscation after another. Law only works insofar as the law-abiding are inclined to be cooperative; when lawmakers make it too hard to cooperate, the law-abiding stop being so (not choosing to be criminals, but made so by an impossible litany of oppression).
All that said, I'd say my own breaking point may be SCOTUS reversing Parker (or a comparable event).
AWB II would probably the breaking point for a LOT of people; I'd just move firmly into NFA territory and go after 922(o) ("I'm goin' after the big stuff while you Dems get pummeled by everyone else...").
ctdonath
Member
That points to the trick used to keep this BS going: put a disinterested third party on the line. Spouse/family is one - you'll do darn near anything to ensure they won't be hurt. Financially involved middleman is another - say, require all transactions go thru an FFL who really doesn't care so long as he gets paid, and he'll do whatever is required to make sure he keeps getting paid.
I'm reminded of how, in his early years, Yassir Arafat shut down one of his terrorist groups: fiercely motivated single men, willing to kill & die for the cause, were "neutralized" when he held a beauty pagent and married the winners off to the highly-respected terrorists, who suddenly had a reason to calm down and live.
"Breaking point" and "What to do about it" are two entirely different issues.
We may all have a similar breaking point, but what we do about it probably has a different answer for each person.
My breaking point is very near. Some days, I am very close to "going off the map" or "checking out". Part of my plan to checkout of mainstream America is my upcoming move to a rural part of Hawaii in the next month. I hope to never live on the mainland ever again. There are parts of Hawaii where no one would ever find you, and you can live off the grid and be entirely self-sufficient.
Which leads me to the second part, "What to do about it." A lot of you talk about revolutions and taking our country back and quote Jefferson, "the tree of liberty must be watered from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants", but I believe these are all empty threats, saber rattling at our Government, all the while saying, "don't piss me off, or I will continue to rattle my saber yet still pay taxes and still vote in a 2 party system!"
I believe the true revolutionary will check out, which is probably what I will do if I reach my breaking point. I would disappear into the wilderness and live according to my own rule of law. Not for the good of my neighbor or for the nation, but as a matter of personal survival and "keeping what's mine."
I envy people who are "under the radar". I have friends who live on a cash basis, they don't file taxes, they don't register anything with anyone, they don't have bank accounts, and they truly could disappear and no one would know where to find them. This would be my ultimate resolution to reaching my breaking point.
Revolution to take back our country? Pffft. That's a pipe dream today. I'm more concerned about my own survival, disappearing, and not being part of the system.
We may all have a similar breaking point, but what we do about it probably has a different answer for each person.
My breaking point is very near. Some days, I am very close to "going off the map" or "checking out". Part of my plan to checkout of mainstream America is my upcoming move to a rural part of Hawaii in the next month. I hope to never live on the mainland ever again. There are parts of Hawaii where no one would ever find you, and you can live off the grid and be entirely self-sufficient.
Which leads me to the second part, "What to do about it." A lot of you talk about revolutions and taking our country back and quote Jefferson, "the tree of liberty must be watered from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants", but I believe these are all empty threats, saber rattling at our Government, all the while saying, "don't piss me off, or I will continue to rattle my saber yet still pay taxes and still vote in a 2 party system!"
I believe the true revolutionary will check out, which is probably what I will do if I reach my breaking point. I would disappear into the wilderness and live according to my own rule of law. Not for the good of my neighbor or for the nation, but as a matter of personal survival and "keeping what's mine."
I envy people who are "under the radar". I have friends who live on a cash basis, they don't file taxes, they don't register anything with anyone, they don't have bank accounts, and they truly could disappear and no one would know where to find them. This would be my ultimate resolution to reaching my breaking point.
Revolution to take back our country? Pffft. That's a pipe dream today. I'm more concerned about my own survival, disappearing, and not being part of the system.
hmm.
Talking to my best friend today, his views are a lot different than myself.
What are you gonna do about it, there is nothing you or I can do about it, it is above our heads...
So I find out that my brother, 4 of my best friends and my little sister dont vote.
I am going to be working on educating everyone close to me. I am generally respected by my friends and I certain they will follow my lead.
Talking to my best friend today, his views are a lot different than myself.
What are you gonna do about it, there is nothing you or I can do about it, it is above our heads...
So I find out that my brother, 4 of my best friends and my little sister dont vote.
I am going to be working on educating everyone close to me. I am generally respected by my friends and I certain they will follow my lead.
oldfart
Member
:banghead:
helpless,
I've told this story before but I guess it's time to resurrect it again.
My family lived in the country a few miles from a large city. Our neighbors had kids too and we all went to school in a one-room, 8-grade school. Our summers, until we were old enough to work, were occupied by baseball. Most boys (and some of the girls) had a bit of room where a ballfield could be set up. Naturally, each field had special rules for what would happen if the ball were to go into the creek or the bull-pen (a real bull!) or over an electric fence. Some of the kids made rules that were just plain assinine and we didn't play there very often.
Voting is like playing on one of those fields.
The rules all favor the 'home team' by effectively disenfranchising anyone who might want to do things differently than the 'home team' has been doing them. Any complaint about the rules is resolved in favor of the 'home team.' Any attempt to circumvent the rules is punished by the 'home team.' The only recourse is to leave the field in disgust, resolving to never play the game again - a tactic that is sure to earn the derision of those who are winning the game and those who are too brainwashed to see their vote is merely a 'bread and circus' show put on periodically to keep us all in line.
I've given up counting the number of lies told to me by politicians who sought my vote. If they managed to get into office conditions always changed, making it impossible to keep his promises. Of course it wasn't his fault, it was because of some factor he couldn't have known about until he walked into his new office and started drawing his new salary.
Fool me once - shame on you. Fool me twice - shame on me.
helpless,
I've told this story before but I guess it's time to resurrect it again.
My family lived in the country a few miles from a large city. Our neighbors had kids too and we all went to school in a one-room, 8-grade school. Our summers, until we were old enough to work, were occupied by baseball. Most boys (and some of the girls) had a bit of room where a ballfield could be set up. Naturally, each field had special rules for what would happen if the ball were to go into the creek or the bull-pen (a real bull!) or over an electric fence. Some of the kids made rules that were just plain assinine and we didn't play there very often.
Voting is like playing on one of those fields.
The rules all favor the 'home team' by effectively disenfranchising anyone who might want to do things differently than the 'home team' has been doing them. Any complaint about the rules is resolved in favor of the 'home team.' Any attempt to circumvent the rules is punished by the 'home team.' The only recourse is to leave the field in disgust, resolving to never play the game again - a tactic that is sure to earn the derision of those who are winning the game and those who are too brainwashed to see their vote is merely a 'bread and circus' show put on periodically to keep us all in line.
I've given up counting the number of lies told to me by politicians who sought my vote. If they managed to get into office conditions always changed, making it impossible to keep his promises. Of course it wasn't his fault, it was because of some factor he couldn't have known about until he walked into his new office and started drawing his new salary.
Fool me once - shame on you. Fool me twice - shame on me.
joab
Member
I'm no leader either but I am a good follower,
One big problem in the world today is that those who think of themselves as great leaders ain't and us followers are sometimes to followy to see it.
I had the great fortune very recently to have one of those eye opening medical experiences where you think you have that disease that gives you three months to a year to live (turned out to be really wicked indigestion coupled with an ulcer and something called GERD)
After much soul searching on my impending death I came to the honest and sincere conclusion that I didn't care,
Twenty or thirty more years of taking up space in the world we have created wasn't that appealing, I just didn't want it to hurt too much
I am now the perfect follower.
I believe the military term is "cannon fodder"
So what's the signal
oldfart
Member
Yeah, I've given some thought to what I might do if I knew I only had a short time to live. Just what could TPTB take from you if you stepped on their toes a bit forcefully? I don't remember who said it, but it goes something like 'there's nothing you can do to a free man except kill him.' If that option is preempted by God, about all that's left is ridicule and that's kinda paltry compared to some of the things a "free" man could do.
Somewhere around here I have a print-out of an essay by I-don't-remember-who that postulated that there is an increasing number of people in this world that need a match-grade round between the eyes. What would happen if a bunch of old guys who knew their days were numbered decided - on their own, with no communications between them - to sanction some miserable left-wing, anti-freedom busybody?
Of course TPTB would go into full-spin mode and denounce each and every one of them as child molesters driven to become anti-government terrorists rather than register and put a sign in their windows.
Somewhere around here I have a print-out of an essay by I-don't-remember-who that postulated that there is an increasing number of people in this world that need a match-grade round between the eyes. What would happen if a bunch of old guys who knew their days were numbered decided - on their own, with no communications between them - to sanction some miserable left-wing, anti-freedom busybody?
Of course TPTB would go into full-spin mode and denounce each and every one of them as child molesters driven to become anti-government terrorists rather than register and put a sign in their windows.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
We've come to be where we are via politicians pandering to voting blocs, using funds from the public coffers to buy the votes.
Add in the activists like the Brady Bunch, who are unending in publicizing non-factual, emotionally-laden messages.
I note that we have made gains at the state level, although the national level is still a problem.
The Zumbo affair illustrated a new power in a changing world, that of the Internet and of blogs and boards such as this one.
Our main hope is not only continue as we have in political activism, but to get more people to join us, and for all of us to do more.
That's more letters to editors and congresscritters and state legislators. More showing up at city council or county commission meetings. More money to campaigns at lower levels; today's city council guy may be in the state legislature, next year. Envelope stuffing in campaigns. Phone banks. Poll-taxi on election day. And plain old jawboning our buddies to go vote.
All that stuff.
We can't make gains to recover what we've lost if we just sit back and vent on the Internet...
But take heart from one fact: It doesn't take all that many votes to swing an election. Look how many are in the range of 53/47 or thereabouts. Four points is all it takes to change from a loser to a winner.
Art
Our enemies do it; what's our excuse for not doing it?
Add in the activists like the Brady Bunch, who are unending in publicizing non-factual, emotionally-laden messages.
I note that we have made gains at the state level, although the national level is still a problem.
The Zumbo affair illustrated a new power in a changing world, that of the Internet and of blogs and boards such as this one.
Our main hope is not only continue as we have in political activism, but to get more people to join us, and for all of us to do more.
That's more letters to editors and congresscritters and state legislators. More showing up at city council or county commission meetings. More money to campaigns at lower levels; today's city council guy may be in the state legislature, next year. Envelope stuffing in campaigns. Phone banks. Poll-taxi on election day. And plain old jawboning our buddies to go vote.
All that stuff.
We can't make gains to recover what we've lost if we just sit back and vent on the Internet...
But take heart from one fact: It doesn't take all that many votes to swing an election. Look how many are in the range of 53/47 or thereabouts. Four points is all it takes to change from a loser to a winner.
Art
Our enemies do it; what's our excuse for not doing it?
nobody_special
member
ctdonath said:
I'm not entirely sure what your point is here... that we shouldn't have any other attachments aside from a pursuit of a state of perfect freedom?
Yes, absolutely - the situation regarding the RKBA is better than it has been for a long time.
But these days, I'm not "taking heart" much. Why?
Because the RKBA is one of the least endangered rights. I'm far more worried about the fourth, fifth, sixth, and eighth amendments... or, for that matter, the tendency of the executive branch and it's agencies to simply ignore the law.
Without rule of law, freedoms can not be protected by legal means, and legislative or judicial victories have little meaning.
For most people that is not realistic. People live where they have jobs, friends and families. And if freedom-loving people leave a state, that leaves fewer people who will fight for freedom in that state.
Most states are pretty decent regarding RKBA. There are -- what, a half dozen? -- states which have excessively burdensome and restrictive laws... CA, NY, NJ, IL, MA, MD?
Of those, I'm somewhat familiar with only CA firearms law. It is far too restrictive... AWB, handgun registration, may-issue (generally not), and very limited open carry. Yet within 2 years, I will probably move from NM, one of the most RKBA-friendly states, to CA. Most of my friends live there, and most of the jobs are there (or in Europe which is generally even more anti-RKBA).
The proper approach is to fight for freedom wherever you live. Giving up and moving away simply cedes territory to your opponent.
I think you hit the nail on the head, but that's only one aspect of the breaking point. The other is fear of a lawless government run amok with JBT's breaking down doors and innocent people being persecuted for political or economic reasons.
I don't think we're at that point, but I see movement in that direction.
ConstitutionCowboy
member
Don't Take Too Much Heart
- CCW permits have gone from almost impossible to "shall issue" in most states.
Those permits are band aids on the gash in our rights. The underlying unconstitutional law is still there in every case. Rip off the band aid, and you're back to square negative one.
- 2 states are "Vermont carry".
Yes, and this is good, but you are still limited by unconstitutional federal law such as that "no guns near a school" BS.
- the only true federal ban is on machineguns....
...and the difficulties in obtaining grenades, RPGs and their launchers, etc, etc...
- inflation has brought the NFA tax down to a very manageable $200.
But, it's still there and no less an infringement.
- most (?) states have very tolerable restrictions (easy permits and no gun registration).
ANY infringement is still a problem
- DC Circuit court declared the 2nd Amendment an individual right.
That is a good start
- NJ high court did the same a week later.
That too is a good start for NJ.
- The Zumbo incident demonstrated huge grass-roots mobilization in 3 days flat.
That is worth taking heart over. We have shown that we do have a voice.
Woody
A law that says you cannot fire your gun in the middle of downtown unless in self defense is not unconstitutional. Laws that prohibit brandishing except in self defense or handling your gun in a threatening or unsafe manner would not be unconstitutional. Laws can be written that govern some of the uses of guns. No law can be written that infringes upon buying, keeping, storing, carrying, limiting caliber, limiting capacity, limiting quantity, limiting action, or any other limit that would infringe upon the keeping or bearing of arms. That is the truth and simple reality of the limits placed upon government by the Second Amendment to the Constitution. B.E.Wood
- CCW permits have gone from almost impossible to "shall issue" in most states.
Those permits are band aids on the gash in our rights. The underlying unconstitutional law is still there in every case. Rip off the band aid, and you're back to square negative one.
- 2 states are "Vermont carry".
Yes, and this is good, but you are still limited by unconstitutional federal law such as that "no guns near a school" BS.
- the only true federal ban is on machineguns....
...and the difficulties in obtaining grenades, RPGs and their launchers, etc, etc...
- inflation has brought the NFA tax down to a very manageable $200.
But, it's still there and no less an infringement.
- most (?) states have very tolerable restrictions (easy permits and no gun registration).
ANY infringement is still a problem
- DC Circuit court declared the 2nd Amendment an individual right.
That is a good start
- NJ high court did the same a week later.
That too is a good start for NJ.
- The Zumbo incident demonstrated huge grass-roots mobilization in 3 days flat.
That is worth taking heart over. We have shown that we do have a voice.
Woody
A law that says you cannot fire your gun in the middle of downtown unless in self defense is not unconstitutional. Laws that prohibit brandishing except in self defense or handling your gun in a threatening or unsafe manner would not be unconstitutional. Laws can be written that govern some of the uses of guns. No law can be written that infringes upon buying, keeping, storing, carrying, limiting caliber, limiting capacity, limiting quantity, limiting action, or any other limit that would infringe upon the keeping or bearing of arms. That is the truth and simple reality of the limits placed upon government by the Second Amendment to the Constitution. B.E.Wood
Thin Black Line
Member
Like I mentioned before, the "breaking point" for most individuals has to do
with more with than just guns. Florida was far ahead of most in issuing CCWs
--even for non-residents-- but when you read local stuff like this, it makes
you wonder about where things are going:
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/16/1664.asp
Why not just tow the car and hold it until all fees are paid? Why does the
guy who RENTS get three strikes and the homeowner gets one?! It's kind of
like serf (the renter who is in effect owned by someone else) and freeholder
(the man who at least owns his own cottage) all over again with the local
lord trying to quash the freeholders within the fiefdom.
- Status
