Which is the safest autoloader when round loaded in chamber?

[Agsalaska]

This is a good question I have pondered ever since I had my first child. I used to carry a Kahr K40 in a shoulder holster a lot. I was driving one day with the baby daughter in the back and I realized I had a loaded, chambered handgun aimed directly at my daughter. I practice a lot(or used to) and understand how incredibly remote the possibility of actually shooting it on accident was. But I still couldnt get over it. I got a ton of advice about it. Everything from dont chamber it(not an option) to carrying a revolver with the first hole empty(not a great option but actually not the worst.) I finally decided that the answer was a handgun with a decock and safety or a single action 1911.

The other problem in my brain grew as my kids got older. I am as safe as I can possibly be with my guns. I use safes, dont leave a bunch of loaded guns laying around, etc. But no matter how safe you are you cant completely eliminate the human element. Now my daughter is a big sister and can get just about anywhere in the house that is not behind a lock. And at four years old you cant teach her 100% to keep her hands off of something. And if she was determined and I slipped and left the Kahr, or Glock, on the counter she could fire it. It would be a complete accident of course but it woldnt matter. But a 1911, or a Beretta 92, USP Compact, etc. would probably be beyond her abilities even if she had five or ten minutes to play with it.

As much as you want to yell train train train, it doesnt matter. Home tragedies are realities. In fact it could be argued that the risk of a home accident can be greater than actually meeting a threat outside your home depending on where you lived. I would rather have to teach myself to manage the decock of a 92, even if it adds to the compexity or a possibly frightening and panicked situation, if it brought more safety to the human element at home.




Edit-Of course training matters. The point is you cannot 100% train away human element. You can only minimize it as much as you can. And how much you can depends entirely on the person.

 

[JohnKSa]

I'd say if you were going for maximum safety and that was your only concern, a true DAO autoloader with a firing pin/drop safety, magazine safety and a manual safety would be hard to beat. By "true DAO", I means something along the lines of the Beretta 92D--yes, I know it doesn't have a manual safety or magazine safety.

That would give you a long, relatively heavy, but smooth trigger pull for each shot, and the ability to deactivate the trigger with a manual safety or by dropping the magazine. In addition the gun is never really cocked except immediately before a shot is fired.

 

[Nushif]

Just something to consider when discussing "safe" guns.

IF we are truly removing the human element we have to remove the trigger pull as an element. A healthy or even borderline healthy human can easily pull even a heavy and long trigger. Otherwise the gun would be unusable.

So a purely mechanically safe gun would have more and more mechanical safeties, rather than just reminding the human (again with that human element) that they're pulling a trigger.

Imagine a .5 pound trigger, with an external safety, grip safety, several drop safeties and squeeze cocker. Versus a Glock with a 12 pound trigger pull and all mechanical safeties removed.

Unless we are talking with the human element involved here, which would mean we have to account for some pretty darned unpredictable stuff.

 

[Pyro]

From what I've been told the 1911 in Condition One is the safest firearm to carry with +1.
Something about the high number of failsafes or something...I dunno.

When it comes down to it..it's all about the user.

 

[smalls]

Putting down the hammer on a loaded 1911 doesn't seem like a great idea, either, agsalaska.

 

[tuj]

I think the 1911 has quite a few carry options (half cock etc.).

NO! Half-cock is not a safe condition for the 1911. The half-cock notch is there to prevent a hammer-slip from hitting the firing pin without the trigger being pulled. It is NOT a carry condition that is safe.

 

[9mmepiphany]

And the P7. I was taught to acquire a firing grip on the pistol in the holster. That gives you a cocked gun with 3 lb trigger when pulling the H&K.

The P7 has a different manual of arms.

The master grip in the holster is taken without depressing the squeeze cocker. You can still draw the gun as it takes about 12lbs to depress. The gun is cocked at the same point, in your draw, as you should take off the thumb safety on a 1911. It only takes about 4lbs to hold the lever depressed...it is easily done with just the middle finger

 

[Pyro]

NO! Half-cock is not a safe condition for the 1911. The half-cock notch is there to prevent a hammer-slip from hitting the firing pin without the trigger being pulled. It is NOT a carry condition that is safe.

Are their any other weapons that can be carried in half-cock safely?
My little .25 I carry in half-cock everywhere.

 

[Bovice]

any DA gun with an exposed hammer. When reholstering, you can put your thumb over the hammer and if the trigger gets snagged, you have more than one way to know it before disaster strikes. First, the pull will be heavy. Second, you'll feel the hammer coming back.

 

[GLOOB]

My little .25 I carry in half-cock everywhere.

I just read of a veteran that died when he dropped his Colt .25 auto from waist high, and it fired. Half-cock notch is usually not a good way to carry a gun. There are only a couple of exceptions. Some very early 1911's were (arguably) designed to carry on halfcock. And some eastern European and Russion milsurps. But regardless how U-shaped the half cock notch is, nor how it purportedly locks the hammer or even disengages the trigger, if the gun has an inertial firing pin, hammer all the way down is always going to be safer. (Though not always as practical. Example of this is the FNX. The decocker only drops to the half cock notch. But since the gun has a firing pin safety, it's safer to just leave it on the halfcock notch, rather than risking an ND to lower it all the way.)

When the gun is on halfcock, a hard hit to the back of the hammer can break something. When the sear or hammer snaps or slips under high stress, it can send the hammer (or the broken part of the hammer) flying into the firing pin at high speed. It doesn't matter there's only a fraction of an inch of travel, cuz when the parts give, an enormous amount of tension is suddenly released. If you put your gun on halfcock into a vice and slowly increase the pressure until it breaks, the gun might fire, even though there's nothing being thrown around at high speed. If the hammer is all the way down to begin with, this can't happen, no matter what bends or breaks. You can trust a half cock notch to stand up to the momentum of the hammer should it slip off your thumb. You shouldn't really trust it to hold up to the gun falling and putting the momentum of the entire gun onto the same mechanism.

 

[Zerodefect]

1911 should be carried "Cocked and Locked" or "Empty Pipe".

Half Cock is not safe.
Hammer down is not safe.

Both are slower anyways. A cocked and locked 1911 is as safe as it gets. You have to get over the stigma of the scary cocked hammer.

 

[Blue68f100]

Putting down the hammer on a loaded 1911 doesn't seem like a great idea, either, agsalaska.

The only time you manually drop the hammer on a 1911 is when it's NOT LOADED. Which means you clear the gun, chamber clear mag removed.

 

[dondavis3]

DA/SA with a safety or a decocker are the safest in my opinion.

 

[Pilot]

The Half Cock position on the 1911 is perfectly safe for carry, but I wouldn't choose that over cocked and locked as it requires more time and effort to get the gun into firing mode.

 

[Nushif]

The only time you manually drop the hammer on a [...]

Gotta say I am mildly tired of this kind of line of thinking. People dropped the hammer on single action revolvers for a whole lot of years and some of them even *le gasp* did so under stress!
Frankly, if a shooter does not feel like they can possibly drop the hammer on a single action gun, they are missing out on doing a very, very critical task in the manual of arms. You need to know how to work your gun if you can't drop the hammer in a controlled manner.

 

[Jim Watson]

The P7 has a different manual of arms.

The master grip in the holster is taken without depressing the squeeze cocker.

Yes, I know. I developed kind of a "plucking" motion to get the gun out of the holster without squeezing it hard enough to cock before it approached the target. Way different from normal use of Colt, S&W, etc., etc. Which is why I said I did not want to devote my life to it and sold it so I could enjoy other action types.

 

[johnnydollar]

Another vote for the HK P7.

 

[Swing]

1911.

Cocked and locked, grip safety, thumb safety.

Agreed. Doesn't get more simple/basic than a cocked'n'locked 1911.

Well, the Walther P99 has a neato chamber-loaded indicator, but I'm still going with the Colt masterpiece.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Yes, I know. I developed kind of a "plucking" motion to get the gun out of the holster without squeezing it hard enough to cock before it approached the target. Way different from normal use of Colt, S&W, etc., etc. Which is why I said I did not want to devote my life to it and sold it so I could enjoy other action types.

I went the other way and draw all my pistols with a scooping motion. I find it helps me from applying too much pressure with the strong hand and allows a better trigger press

 

[Agsalaska]

The only time you manually drop the hammer on a 1911 is when it's NOT LOADED. Which means you clear the gun, chamber clear mag removed.

I understand that. Im not scared of dropping the hammer on it. I can prevent it from firing. Im worried about leaving it down and something hitting it. From what I understand that is the issue.

Either way, when i referred to a 1911, I was referring to a cocked and locked 1911.

 

[exavid]

We all have our opinion but I feel safest with a DAO pistol. My two favorite carry guns are an LCP and LC9. With their long trigger pull they are highly unlikely to be fired accidently. I never use the safety on the LC9, there's just about no chance to fire either gun negligently. True the trigger pull is long and not light but with some practice this isn't a problem, in fact it's probably an advantage because under stress there's less chance of a tense finger firing a round compared to a SA pistol once the safety is off. I have no problem hitting an 8x10" steel plate at 25yds with the LCP, it took several hundred rounds to get to that point and plenty more to keep sharp with it, the LC9 isn't nearly as hard to get and stay accurate with it's much better sights.

 

[Bassleg]

I never leave a loaded handgun laying around if it's loaded it's on me or in the safe.

 

[Inebriated]

The one that has a responsible user.

 

[theQman23]

Glocks.


There is nothing to confuse the shooter and nothing to complicate the shooting process....

no manual safety, no decocker, no decocker/safety, no heavy DA first shot, no grip safety....




Just keep your finger off the trigger till the target is in your sights and you are ready to shoot.

Yes, it's really that simple.

Yeaup, What he said.........

 

[Zerodefect]

There's no harm in squeezing a HK P7 on the draw.

More likely to blast yourself reholstering, but any sound draw technique should be very safe as long as you keep your trigger finger pointed and dont mistake it for your grip.

My technique:
-sweep and/or lift garment
-slam the web of may hand in hard to the top of the pistol
-push down and squeeze hard with thumb out
-draw
-reposition thumb as you rotate your pistol forward.

Pushing down hard insures that you get a consistant easy to duplicate grip that is also high up on the pistol. It also pushes your belt and holster down giving your arm an extra inch or two to snap it out of a stiff holster easier.

With a Crossbreed Holster I just sweep the pistol and snatch it with my fingers. 5 oclock is too far back for me to get a proper grip. The cost of deep concealment on my frame.