Will there EVER be a consensus on C1, C2 or C3

[6x6pinz]

Wow so many questions in just one poll

first question was the title

Will there EVER be a consensus on C1, C2 or C3

NO

second question is the poll itself

Which Condition do you (REALLY) use?

C1 for me (always one in the chamber with the pistols I carry)

third question is

IN YOUR OPINION, Which is the all-around safest condition in which to carry concealed?

the safest is to have a totally empty firearm (not practical but is the "safest")

 

[sansone]

depends upon the weapon and threat level. In the store my LCP has a chambered round but there is no hammer or safety. Just being DAO makes it safe enough for me. If I am going someplace where the threat is greater, my BHP is chambered, cocked, safety on.. the trigger has no creep and light pull so I feel the safety must be on

 

[Creature]

Every time I see one of these weapon condition polls, it seems to me that it is usually because the OP has yet to convince him or herself that C1 is actually a safe method of carry.

 

[moxie]

fatfreddiescat,

I'm not recommending anyone use it except in special circumstances, but you should include Condition Zero in your thinking. Condition 0, for those unfamiliar with it, is round chambered, hammer cocked, and safety OFF (cocked and UNlocked). You are depending on the grip safety and your ability to keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot. Sounds scary, but it's the fastest way to bring a pistol into action, and perfectly safe in the hands of a capable shooter in the right circumstances.

 

[PT1911]

I don't see Condition 3 as "useless" at all.
Not all situations where a gun has come in handy have been having to beat the drop with a blazing quick-draw, and not all sidearms are carried in areas and situations where the need for a fast draw would be likely. Few of us are facing the same types of scenarios as Israeli commandos on patrol in the Gaza Strip.

As for Condition 2, there are circumstances which make it not only a viable alternative, but a wise one.

It is in no way my intention to get into an argument or pissing match with someone I KNOWto be more knowledgeable than myself so I ask the following in all sincerity.

When and When?

I was under the impression in my carrying that I should be able to deploy my gun and put rounds into a threat as quickly as reasonably possible.. perhaps that "reasonably" adds a bit of a gray area, but it seems to me that if the threat is far enough away OR not yet enough of a threat to deserve a shiny new bullet, then retreat is a more viable option.

In the case of

As for Condition 2, there are circumstances which make it not only a viable alternative, but a wise one.

, I again ask when. For the same reasons stated above it, seems one would want to their gun to be ready as quickly as reasonably possible. Seeing as every method of cocking 1911 is awkward at best, i find it difficult to understand when it would be preferable.. the most common reason I find people justifying their C2 carry is for "safety" in that they somehow doubt the usefullness of the safety mechanisms integrated into the design...

Of course most everything I have said to this point is directed at the 1911 and similar SA designs... when one talks about a DA/SA, like say my CZ SP-01, I prefer decocked (using the guns designed decocker) on a loaded chamber. I suppose that is technically considered C2 if you want to expand the definition to include more than 1911esc designs.

 

[1911Tuner]

When and When?

When I was younger and outdoor-ish, I often carried a 1911 pistol in some pretty nasty conditions. Wishing to afford the best protection for the pistol, I carried in Condition 2 so that I could still ready it with one hand and keep the crud out of the lockwork. I very often hamstrung myself even further by using a flap holster in order to make the gun as impervious to foreign material as possible while still retaining fairly rapid access and one hand operation should the need arise. Slower? Yes...but not as slow as you might think with just a little practice and knowing how. Cocking the hammer after the draw isn't the way. Cocking it while it's still in the holster or just as the grip is obtained...is.

The plain, simple truth is that...as private citizens...only a small percentage of us have a real or defined need to even carry a pistol at all. We carry because we can and because it's better to be prepared for that once-in-a-lifetime nightmare in which we'll actually need to shoot for blood. For those who do have a need to carry a gun, the best advice is to carry two guns.

As for Condition 3...That's also a matter of choice/when and where...but most of the time, I carry a double-action revolver for those low-risk places and times. If I'm headed into a higher-risk area to conduct business, I go with a cocked and locked 1911. Sometimes, I even carry a single-action revolver...mostly when I'm at home and knocking around the property.

 

[PT1911]

I can understand that perspective... I hadnt put the external environment into perspective as an influence which method of carry to use... In such cases that i would worry about crudding up my (insert model here) i would probably opt for another, less sensitive, design. As i understand that is not an option for many, other modes of carry are a viable option.


I appreciate your response.

 

[Nushif]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but many handguns can be locked, but not cocked. One such example is the Beretta 92FS. Once you chamber a round, the safety activates the decocker and now you have a hammer down on a chambered round. You are still in condition one, but you are "not cocked and locked."

Depends on the gun. All the guns I own are either DAO or can be carried in Condition one. Taurus for instance makes a 92 that can be carried cocked and locked.

 

[Deaf Smith]

How about condition ZERO... that is Cocked and UNLOCKED?

It has been used before by certian military organizations.

Deaf

 

[redbullitt]

I answered with carrying a DA/SA handgun. Used to carry a Jericho, and I liked with with a round in the tube and the hammer down. However, if I were packing a 1911 style etc Id go cocked with one in the tube and the safety on.

I WILL say that the main thing to consider is what you are comfortable with and what you practice with. I have seen some guys rack the slide on the draw and they were darn good at it...
That said, I am carrying a striker pistol now lol.

 

[cesarv]

Depends on the gun. All the guns I own are either DAO or can be carried in Condition one. Taurus for instance makes a 92 that can be carried cocked and locked.

Well yes, that is why I said "some guns." I gave the Beretta 92FS as an example because that's what I carried when I was in the military. They teach that the Beretta M9 only has 3 conditions, 1, 3, and 4. They called one in the chamber and safety on (thus de-cocked) as condition 1, and we never carried without the safety on.

 

[tipoc]

I'm in agreement with 1911 Tuner. I often carry condition 1 but have carried, or kept the gun about me, in 2 or 3 and the need or
situation arose.

I've never carried a gun in a holster, pocket, bag, glove compartment, etc. cocked and unlocked.

tipoc

 

[fatfreddiescat]

Every time I see one of these weapon condition polls, it seems to me that it is usually because the OP has yet to convince him or herself that C1 is actually a safe method of carry.

This certainly factors into my personal habit, which has been C3. I have had and carried handguns for quite a while, and I think a lot of us old(er) goats liked the feeling of having a weapon at hand for defense. As the times have changed drastically in the last 15-20 years, so has the opinion re C3 vs. C1. I have been working into more time at C1, and it seems justified more now than ever. I think this is because, IMHO, that the odds of encountering a BG up close and real, have increased over time, and therefore, so should the (inherent) need to be as quick as possible in the effort to defeat this BG. I practice at my local range very frequently, and again, as I used to do when I had decided to start carrying again, I spend a lot of time while I'm at home carrying in C1. I call it practice, and I find that is also a confirming method that will lead to a more comfortable overall experience regarding carrying C1 all the time.

So, yes, I think that overcautiousness as well as the general feeling towards the 'newer' blase attitude that young guns seem to have about concern for life has started to bring logic and an irrefutable mandate to morph from a C3 to a C1 practice. I have thought for some time that it is a less than even odds thing to carry without one chambered, and I am also thinking that it's time to get used to that mode in my daily practices.

 

[fatfreddiescat]

HEY PT1911....et al Thanks for expanding on your thoughts about C1. I have responded to Creature before I saw this post, and it is in answer to a possible lack of confidence with this weapon, along with the 'changing of the times' in general that brought me to this quandry. 20 years ago, it seemed to me that merely having the firepower within reach offered a serious feeling of being able to exert defense. I think that today's values bring a need of a different approach.

I agree that being 'first' is critical to outcomes. More now than it used to be. In the 60's, 70's and 80's I carried. Some of that time I was in Texas. I was born there. A LOT of folks carried then and there. In and of itself, just knowing that the guy who just cut you off in traffic probably was ALSO packin' certainly influenced ones idea of flipping the other driver off, or otherwise starting any trouble.

I believe "the times, they are a-changin'" and the need for speed as well as accurateness is more important than ever. So, I have increased my calls to the local range, (50 shots, 49 within an 8" circle, or better, at 50' ~ I'm trying for 50 out of 50 in a 6" circle) and I've also taken to carrying C1 more often. I think its gonna be like a lot of things ~ practice makes perfect, or at least better!

 

[swinokur]

As someone pointed out, there is a huge difference between SAFE and EFFECTIVE. Unchambered is safer but totally ineffective because in many scenarios, they are over in seconds and you may not be afforded an opportunity to even chamber a round. Yep-safer for sure. Effective? Hardly. IMO

 

[uspJ]

If I'm going to carry a SA gun it will be in condition 1. It is faster and easier for me to sweep a safety than it is to cock the hammer.

I have used condition 4 no mag, gun unloaded when doing dry fire practice.

 

[1911Tuner]

Unchambered is safer but totally ineffective because...

"Totally" ineffective is a pretty wide brush to paint with. It's still a gun, and it still has ammunition in the magazine...and it can still be readied in three seconds or less. The Israeli Defense Force manages to be pretty effective with Condition 3. They do that by being aware of their surroundings.

Condition 3 was SOP for the US Cavalry in 1918...in the middle of The War to End All Wars...unless action was iminent. At that point, Condition 1 was authorized. When the emergency had passed, the pistol was to be returned to the holster with the hammer down on an empty chamber.

Not all gunfights start with a fast draw. The main issue is to be alert so that you can see trouble coming as early as possible. As a savvy old man-killer once noted:

"The fastest draw is to have the gun in your hand before the shooting starts."

If you're in Injun Country...with no disrespect intended to Native Americans...Condition 1 is the best option. Trotting down to the Piggly Wiggly at noon for milk and bread doesn't really call for it.

Location. Location. Location.

 

[swinokur]

I'm reminded of the video of the jewelry store robbery where the owner was killed because he had no chance to rack the slide to shoot at the perps because he was scuffling with them.. That left a huge impression on me. My point was in some situations you won't even have time to rack the slide and since you can't choose the time or manner of an attack, condition 1 seems the most effective, if not safest. A 1911 is pretty durn safe in condition 1, but you knew that already Tuner.

I don't like to compare a military MOA to the civilian world. I have never been in combat but think you'd have a bit more advance warning than an attack in the civilian world.

My .02 YMMV

 

[harmon rabb]

This is pretty stupid, really. The only argument is whether to carry a gun with one in the tube or not. Beyond that, carry the gun how it's designed to be carried -- 1911's are designed to be carried condition 1, Glocks are designed to be carried condition 2, etc. Carry a 1911 with the hammer down is dumb.

Very few guns are designed to be carried in both condition 1 and condition 2 (some FN's are, some H&K's are, some CZ's are). If we're discussing those guns, I think it's just a personal choice. I carry my cz-82 a lot, and it's designed to be carried either condition 1 or condition 2. I carry it condition 2 because it doesn't have a grip safety, which would make me comfortable to carry it in condition 1.

 

[1911Tuner]

I'm reminded of the video of the jewelry store robbery where the owner was killed because he had no chance to rack the slide

He was in "Injun Country" as is any pharmacist, liquor store operator, bank teller, and police officer.

1911's are designed to be carried condition 1,

No...They're not. The 1911 was designed to be carried in any of four states of readiness.

It was designed to allow it to be safely placed in Condition 1...not specifically to be carried that way. How could it be? The first prototypes that were submitted didn't have a manual safety. That was added on request by the U.S. Cavarly so that the gun could be placed on-safe and reholstered while the mounted trooper regained control of an unruly horse without shooting himself or the horse. So, the thumb safety is actually there for reholstering under stress. Even then, the thinking heads understood that a man in the middle of a fight may forget to remove his finger from the trigger during that task...something that Gaston Glock apparently neglected to consider...evidenced by the number of unintentional discharges that occur while holstering the piece.

Moreover, the half-cock was, by design and intent, considered to be a safety. It was referred to as such in the 1910 patents by Browning himself...along with instruction for lowering the hammer to half-cock or "safety" position with one hand. Go and look it up.

The pistol gives us a choice, according to the threat level...real or perceived. As the state of readiness goes up, the level of safety goes down. The gun is statistically less safe in C-1 as in C-2...and less safe in C-2 as in C-3. No loaded gun can ever be completely safe, and it can only be as safe or as dangerous as the hand that happens to be on it.

 

[swinokur]

Moreover, the half-cock was, by design and intent, considered to be a safety. It was referred to as such in the 1910 patents by Browning himself...along with instruction for lowering the hammer to half-cock or "safety" position with one hand. Go and look it up.

This is correct. I got into a discussion with someone on a forum and he stated what Tuner just told you. I didn't believe him and actually surfed over to the US Patent office and read JMB's original patent. He referred to it as the safety area if memory serves me correctly. Learn something new every day. I did read the old Army MOA for the 1911 (1941 or thereabouts) and it never references half cock, but JMB certainly did. It basically allows C1 or Condition 3 IIRC. My memory may be cloudy however.

The patent also had a mag detent so the trigger could not be pulled with no mag in the weapon. I guess the Army didn't adopt that.

 

[1911Tuner]

swinokur...It's referred to as the "Safety Position." This may not be verbatim, but it reads:

"With the pistol at full cock, should it be desired to lower the hammer to the safety position without contacting the firing pin..." and it goes on to describe the method for doing so with one hand. Since Condition 2 allows the hammer to contact the firing pin, the half-cock is the only position remaining. So, the half-cock is a de facto safety, and it's actually a very good one. The hammer and sear are interlocked, and neither one can move. The trigger is likewise locked. If that doesn't fit the criteria for a safety...I'd like to know what does.

The cavalry didn't trust the average soldier to do that under stress, and requested the thumb safety...technically called the "Slide locking manual safety."

 

[coloradokevin]

Will there be a consensus on this issue? No... but is there ever a consensus on any gun-related topic?

I'd say that nearly every professional doesn't even consider this an issue that is open to debate. If you are carrying your handgun for self-defense, you need to have a round chambered. Most non-enthusiasts who are also gun carrying professionals don't even speak in terms of Condition 1, 2, and 3 these days, most probably because the 1911 is no longer the "standard". There are far more Glocks being carried for self-defense these days, and the standard method of carry for this firearm is in a holster with a round in the chamber. Period. You will never see this issue debated in any police academy, or any other reputable training facility that I'm aware of.

I've seen this forum beat to death ideas such as the "Israeli Draw" method, and other such methods of carrying a pistol without a round chambered. But, you'll never find a police officer who is carrying their weapon without a round chambered... we do it safely every day, and so can other people.

 

[swinokur]

Thank you sir. I am once again enlightened (again)

 

[1911Tuner]

I'd say that nearly every professional doesn't even consider this an issue that is open to debate.

Kevin...Nobody is arguing for Condition 3 any more than they're arguing against Condition 1. The question seems to mostly be whether or not it's the only real option. My stance is that the others are viable, depending on the circumstances. For instance...when I'm at home, I'm perfectly comfortable with C3. The pistol is instantly acessible, and can be brought into the equation in a second. On the other hand...If the day's travels are going to take me into a shady part of town, or I have to go out at midnight...I ratchet up to C1. If I'm required to go out to check a dog alert...I usually carry a revolver with me. Sometimes that revolver is a single-action.

The three quick conditions are options that are situation dependent and nothing more.

If Joe is only comfortable with C1 no matter what, then it's there for him at his choice. If Jack is okay with C2 or C3...those are options as well.