Will there EVER be a consensus on C1, C2 or C3

[fatfreddiescat]

IN YOUR OPINION, Which is the all-around safest condition in which to carry concealed?

C1:
Condition 1 is the condition that many police carry their weapon – that is what is euphemistically called “cocked and locked.” Quite simply, cocked and locked means you flick the safety (if you have one, most 1911's do, a lot of auto-loaders don't) pull the trigger (purposely or negligently) and the damn thing is gonna go BANG.

C2:
Considered a more dangerous method of carry, Condition 2 - A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down.

C3:
Condition 3 (on a semi-auto) means that you have a magazine inserted but not chambered. To use the weapon, the round must be “racked.”

Most modern semi-autos (think Glock, as the product represents over 50% of recent hand gun sells) do not have a safety lever. They rely on your good sense and 100% adherent to good “finger” control and use practices.

ALWAYS TREAT THE WEAPON AS IF IT IS IN CONDITION ONE – NO EXCEPTION, ALWAYS!

So, please take the poll, and leave a reason/opinion. Maybe we can shed some 'new light' on an old question.

thanks,
F

 

[REAPER4206969]

There has never been a debate on what method to carry amongst knowledgeable Gunmen. There are no credible people that recommend anything other than C1 carry for defensive/offensive use. None. Zero.<--That's a period.

 

[BlayGlock]

There has never been a debate on what method to carry amongst knowledgeable Gunmen. There are no credible people that recommend anything other than C1 carry for defensive/offensive use. None. Zero.<--That's a period.

This. People who recommend carrying a 1911 in anything other than C1 looses all credibility. Other weapon systems, may require a different manual of arms.

 

[cesarv]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but many handguns can be locked, but not cocked. One such example is the Beretta 92FS. Once you chamber a round, the safety activates the decocker and now you have a hammer down on a chambered round. You are still in condition one, but you are "not cocked and locked."

 

[481]

Since the defensive pistol is an implement whose mission demands that it must always be immediately operable, and often at less than at a moment's notice, carrying it charged and ready to fire is the only reasonable option since there is no promise or guarantee that one will have their second hand available when it is needed in order to bring it on-line.

If a pistol is incapable of being carried safely with a round in the chamber*, I ain't carryin' the damned thing.




* either a SA in "cocked and locked" condition or a DA/DAO with the hammer down on a loaded chamber

 

[cleardiddion]

I carry mine with a round in the pipe and with hammer down and safety off.
Makes sense since I have a DA/SA pistol.
And since it works just as well in C2 (for me) as in C1 I don't see why I should do any different.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Your poll is a bit flawed as you have not specified which action types you are applying the conditions to. Different action types have different correct conditions of readiness.

While C2 is seriously flawed on a SAO pistol, it is the norm in a DA/SA or DAO platform

 

[AKPastor]

No I don't think there will be a consensus - too many threads here already show that there are strong opinions. I think each one should carry as they believe is best based on their firearm, etc. I carry C1 - and I have my reasons. C2 and C3 carriers have their reasons too - and I don't think anyone is going to be convinced from their preference - especially when we get more diatribe than reasoned discussion.

 

[David E]

ALWAYS TREAT THE WEAPON AS IF IT IS IN CONDITION ONE – NO EXCEPTION, ALWAYS!

Sorry, no. I treat all guns as LOADED, regardless of the ready condition.

 

[Rexster]

I think C1 carry IS the current consensus for 1911/BHP carry, although unanimous it is not. It really does not matter; carrying a gun is an individual thing, and the "condition" of the chamber and hammer an individual choice, unless one is carrying under a set of rules/regs that specifies such things.

I have the belief that anyone who is uncomfortable with a cocked hammer should carry a DA weapon, and anyone uncomfortable with a chambered round under the hammer should carry a revolver, but I don't impose my beliefs on others. though I may make gentle recommendations. I use DA pistols and revolvers myself, though not because I am afraid of C1 with a 1911.

The only time I will let the choice of another concern me is whether to work with someone who chooses C3. I work in an armed profession, with a gunfight possible at any moment, and would not want to partner with someone who carried C3. The nature of policing is that hands-on fights can go to guns instantly. Of course, NONE of my colleagues toting 1911s and BHPs, to my knowledge, use anything but C1 these days. I remember some now-retired guys that used C2 and C3. The 1911 goes 'way back in the PD that employs me, though primary duty handguns for uniform wear have been specified DA .40's since 1997.

 

[minutemen1776]

For serious work, I prefer C4 ... explosives.

 

[PT1911]

your question is flawed, IMO... You ask what is the "safest" way to carry not the best or most practical...

The safest possible way would be completely unloaded with a trigger lock mechanism in place "just in case" they are all loaded after all right? NOT

IMO, a gun should never be carried unchambered... it is, for lack of a better word, STUPID!!!!, much like putting gas in your car only when needed, one gallon at a time.

CARRYING a SA loaded with the hammer down is completely safe. Getting the gun into that position, though argued as otherwise, simply isnt. It also gives you just one more strange step before the gun can be put into action

In condition one, the gun is safe (assuming 1911's and the like here...) Barring multiple failures of the design safeties in place the gun can be carried safely AND put into action with the shortest delay.

If someone prefers to carry one way or another, more power to them, but the fact is that of all options, C2 puts you at the greatest risk of making a mistake and C3 takes the longest to deploy when needed.... SO, C1 for me... and decocked for DA/SA guns (still pointed in a safe direction of course.)

 

[moxie]

Condition one or three, depending on perceived threat level. In Vietnam I was new to the game and carried condition zero or two, depending on perceived threat level. These two conditions seem to have fallen out of favor nowadays.

 

[Ben86]

I carry a kahr pm9, so I don't have a hammer, I'm not sure if the old conditions apply to me. But, for what it's worth I always carry the gun with a round chambered and in a holster that covers the trigger. I don't see any reason to do otherwise. It seems like the way that is safest for me and most dangerous to the bad guy.

 

[Shadow 7D]

I have to agree with the NUMEROUS people that point out that there are DIFFERENT manual of arms, for different guns, hence there are different ways to carry pistols that are correct for that gun, but not another

If you have a hodgepodge of guns, and need a standard, then Israeli draw is for you...

 

[1911Tuner]

There has never been a debate on what method to carry amongst knowledgeable Gunmen. There are no credible people that recommend anything other than C1 carry for defensive/offensive use. None. Zero.<--That's a period.

Well...Not bein' a high-speed/low-drag operator myself...I've carried in all three conditions at one time or another, dependin' on the circumstances. Of course, none of my 1911s and variants have upswept ducktails and extended bells and whistles on'em either. I suppose that means that I won't be taken seriously down at the gun store...

 

[David E]

I suppose that means that I won't be taken seriously down at the gun store...

For me, it depends on how well you can shoot, not by what you have on your gun.

 

[orionengnr]

Judging from the results of the poll so far, there is definitely a consensus, and it is a clear one. Almost 80% voted for C-1.

Remember, "consensus" does not necessarily (and in the real world, will almost never) mean "unanimous". Rather, a significant majority, and perhaps the vast majority.

By the way, I checked read about five different definitions of the word "consensus" and what is stated above is a paraphrasing of the "consensus" of those definitions

 

[Ben86]

I forgot to mention something interesting. At my dad's police department, in the early 90's when they first got Glocks, it was common, though not required, for them to carry the guns unchambered. I couldn't believe this. Cops carrying with an empty chamber! That's nuts. But, at that point it was accepted because the Glock didn't have that preventer of all accidents...the safety *sarcasm*

 

[fatfreddiescat]

I thought that this would provide a somewhat unified position, that would be the heavily weighted response, C1.

I also had anticipated the strange few who can't simply give an opinion, but try to discredit, or challenge either the OP (me) or someone who responds to the question with a reasonable answer, but I didn't think that the 'strange few' would be as prevalent as they have appeared. Example, it was brought to light, that "some handguns can be locked, but not cocked. One such example is the Beretta 92FS"... Well, I don't really include that in the group I would call cantankerous, but it does have a minor derailing effect, as to the goal of the poll. That statement was correct, of course, and I do not think the poster was being mean-spirited, but rather making a judgment call on the structure of the question;

however, folks that responded with "answers" that said: "your question is flawed, IMO... You ask what is the "safest" way to carry not the best or most practical...**(maybe I should have said 'most practical', instead of safest, but then I feel like you might have responded "not most practical, but safest")**

The safest possible way would be completely unloaded with a trigger lock mechanism in place "just in case" they are all loaded after all right?" ....Now I like a joke as well as anyone, and that would fine but it feels like you were being antagonistic. Maybe you forgot to use that </sarcastic> code at the end of the statement?! Or, maybe you really didn't understand the question?! It feels like you did understand, and had decided to throw out a mean-spirited passive-aggressive statement that included "IMO, a gun should never be carried unchambered... it is, for lack of a better word, STUPID!!!!"

I guess that at the right time of day, when the moon and stars are lined up just right, some usually helpful folks just sizzle a fuse, and get mean for a second.

No offense meant, and I hope none taken.

 

[2ndAmFan]

I usually carry a G 26 and I carry it with one in the chamber. There are too many things that could happen in a LF encounter that might prevent me from racking the slide.

 

[fatfreddiescat]

Judging from the results of the poll so far, there is definitely a consensus, and it is a clear one. Almost 80% voted for C-1.

Remember, "consensus" does not necessarily (and in the real world, will almost never) mean "unanimous". Rather, a significant majority, and perhaps the vast majority.

By the way, I checked read about five different definitions of the word "consensus" and what is stated above is a paraphrasing of the "consensus" of those definitions

Agreed. I have talked to lots of folks about this choice, and I fully believe that practice, education and confidence in the weapon almost dictate that C1 would be the easiest, more practical option.

 

[PT1911]

The safest possible way would be completely unloaded with a trigger lock mechanism in place "just in case" they are all loaded after all right? NOT " ....Now I like a joke as well as anyone, and that would fine but it feels like you were being antagonistic. Maybe you forgot to use that </sarcastic> code at the end of the statement?! Or, maybe you really didn't understand the question?! It feels like you did understand, and had decided to throw out a mean-spirited passive-aggressive statement that included "IMO, a gun should never be carried unchambered... it is, for lack of a better word, STUPID!!!!"

I apologize if my remarks came across as mean spirited or antagonistic, that was definitely not my intention... I was simply trying to convey that some people's "justifications" for their carry method are silly.

In saying that carrying a gun unchambered is stupid I was not attempting to down you in any way or anyone else who has, at this point, chimed in on this thread. In your OP I do not recall seeing what your personal preference was. As such, I am not sure how my remark can be taken as directed at you or antagonistic toward you, but if it came across that way, then I apologize. My point was that IMO, there is absolutely no reason to carry a gun with an empty chamber, ever. If someone is afraid their gun may accidentally go off, then they should either get a different gun or opt for a different method of personal defense as they will simply be carrying a club ( a purposefully designed club or other HTH combat weapon would actually serve them better than an empty gun.) I suppose there are the silly advocates for "passive" gun use that find it advisable to carry an empty gun in hopes that simply brandishing it would do the trick.

I suppose my remark about what is "safest" was a nitpicky if taken completely seriously. In that statement, I was poking fun at how common the word "safe" has become in guns. What is safe, what is not safe...."is a Glock safe? is a 1911 safe? is a SA revolver safe? is a DA revolver safe?....etc" The truth is that any quality made firearm that is made for the purpose of self defense and to be carried is safe to be carried loaded and ready to fire as long as the built in safeties are in place and working order... One example being a 1911 cocked and LOCKED... With the thumb safety in place and a working grip safety, there is no potential for an AD. I suppose one must have some faith in what another man has built, but it is difficult for me to grasp that someone would trust a gun to go bang every time should they need to defend their life and yet, at the same time, not trust the design of the gun to not "just go off."

As to C2, IMO, that is the only somewhat reasonable alternative method of carry for a 1911 as unchambered is useless and chambered with the safety off is unadvisable (to be polite.) My issues with C2 are that 1st, one must manually decock on a live round. This is best accomplished with two hands as most 1911's I have handled do not lend themselves to easily dropping the hammer with one hand and I do not have small hands. As with most things, if it is something you do every day, one is apt to get lazy and that is when accidents happen. The second issue, though less severe than the first, is that the gun is useless until cocked. This, again, is not an easy thing to do with one hand and even harder with a shooting grip... Then, to make things worse, you have the issue of having to accomplish this awkward(that looks to be spelled wrong) while under extreme pressure... that being, any situation that would justifiably require you to unholster your gun.

I hope this post is found as more informative... I know this comes as long winded, but in answering such a question I do not see how one can give their opinion and not explain the faults in the other methods of carry... especially when those faults are specifically of the safety variety.

And as I stated in my previous post, this is in reference to SA pistols.
In SA/DA pistols, I carry decocked (using the pistol's decocker and pointed in a safe direction of course) and the Long DA pull becomes the only safety I depend on.

 

[wojownik]

I think the question/poll needs to be refined - what types of pistols are you referring to? 1911s? (I think there was a thread that hashed this to death some time ago).

FWIW, I carry my Sigs in C2, and my 1911 in C1.

 

[1911Tuner]

As to C2, IMO, that is the only somewhat reasonable alternative method of carry for a 1911 as unchambered is useless

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I don't see Condition 3 as "useless" at all.
Not all situations where a gun has come in handy have been having to beat the drop with a blazing quick-draw, and not all sidearms are carried in areas and situations where the need for a fast draw would be likely. Few of us are facing the same types of scenarios as Israeli commandos on patrol in the Gaza Strip.

As for Condition 2, there are circumstances which make it not only a viable alternative, but a wise one.