Who Doesn’t Bell & Crimp 45ACP or 9mm?

[Soonerpesek]

But that’s just my opinion. And get off my lawn.

HAHAHAH.........!!!

 

[Laphroaig]

Interesting post. I load mainly coated 45's on a 550C so don't think I would change over when I do crank out some 230 FMJ's. But I load flat base rifle bullets all of the time so I'm pretty sure you could do it.

All of the talk about Redding dies reminded me that I bought a 45 acp double ring sizer some time ago (on sale at Midway for $58) with plans to set it up next time I loaded 45's. I loaded 325 185 SWC's a couple of weeks ago and forgot that I had it. It's going to be hot as blue blazes here tomorrow so I'm staying inside and loading some 200 SWC's. Gotta break out my new die!

 

[dcarr]

For some reason there are a few who don't consider a "Taper Crimp" a crimp ...
well ... when it comes to loading the 45 acp and 9mm Luger ... I bell the mouth to get the bullet started and Taper Crimp the round after seating the bullet ... and that's been working just fine for over 50 years .
Call it whatever you want ... that's how I do it and will continue doing it .
I don't need no new way of walking .
Gary

what he said, except not for 50 years

 

[jmorris]

On a thread on another topic the above subject came up and I was curious how common it was to not bell & crimp.

That depends on what we are talking about. In some disciplines it’s unheard of, others it’s common place and even necessary.

Since I only load 45ACP & 9mm that’s all I’m interested in but since when has a thread stayed on topic?

Again, we get a “Depends” answer. First the bullet has to enter the case without getting “messed up”. Second, the bullet needs to be held in place. If you can do that without flare/bell or crimp of any sort, you don’t need them.

When you don’t flare or bell, there is zero reason to crimp a non cannelured bullet and a hand full of reasons to crimp ones that have them.

 

[Mark_Mark]

I just let me Dillion SBD .45 ACP do all the work. Never really asked it what it does! Came factory set and ready to work

Now my Pro4000 can’t go to bed without being tucked in.

 

[lordpaxman]

I’m already confused since the thread title is “who doesn’t..” , and I don’t, so I guess I’m not supposed to post?

 

[CQB45ACP]

I’m already confused since the thread title is “who doesn’t..” , and I don’t, so I guess I’m not supposed to post?

No, you are and did.

 

[CQB45ACP]

I just gave the no flare thus no crimp a try with 45ACP and it’s a no go. Tried four and none passed two different gauges. Didn’t bother plunking.

Used two R-P cases one with a Berry’s 230gr RN & one with an Extreme 230gr RN. Then did the same with the two Federal cases. Bullets advertised at .452”. I didn’t bother actually measuring. (Why? Because I’d never do it in the real world either and won’t start now.)

I dropped each case in a case gauge to ensure they were sized but not expanded.

Then I seated each bullet using a Redding competition seating die (no internal crimp function) while very lightly holding the bullets upright as I raised the ram.

Three bullets seemed to seat fine but one (a Berry’s) scraped off some plating. I HATE THAT—ruining even one component is unacceptable to me.

Then I dropped the completed rounds in three gauges—RCBS, Hornady, and Wilson. They all passed the RCBS (but even a Trailways bus would too) but none passed the Hornady nor Wilson.

So that’s it for me. My science fair project is over and I’m sticking with ultra light flare/very slight taper crimp.

This has an added benefit because I use an expensive Redding T-7 with three of the seven stations occupied by an expander and two crimpers. What a waste it would be to not use them.

 

[n2omike]

I just gave the no flare thus no crimp a try with 45ACP and it’s a no go. Tried four and none passed two different gauges. Didn’t bother plunking.

I dropped each case in a case gauge to ensure they were sized but not expanded.

You still need to do the neck expanding...

 

[CQB45ACP]

You still need to do the neck expanding... and need to deburr the case mouths.

Huh? With 45ACP?

 

[n2omike]

Huh? With 45ACP?

1. Resize/Deprime
2. Prime
3. Neck Expand (The die that does the case flare also does the neck expanding. You just don't run the case all the way up to the flare.)
4. Powder and bullet

Dies for bottleneck cases do the neck expanding during the resize/deprime step.
Dies for straight wall cases have a separate step for case neck expanding/bell mouthing. The die has an internal cylinder that flares out at the top. The bottom of the cylinder expands the neck, and the flare at the top does the bell mouth.

To avoid the bell mouth, just run the case up short of where the internal die flares out. If you look inside the die, it will make sense.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

1. Resize/Deprime
2. Prime
3. Neck Expand (The die that does the case flare also does the neck expanding. You just don't run the case all the way up to the flare.)
4. Powder and bullet

I think that might be where the terminology gap exists: using an expander bells the case - it is stepped, like a bell - but does not necessarily flare the case mouth. When a portion of the neck is made larger than the resized base or portion of the neck, then the case is said to be "bell-shaped." That's newer terminology in loading vernacular. By the same token, reducing the neck back to the same size as the resized case body plus the bullet "crimps" the brass around the bullet. So yes, you are still belling and crimping, using any vernacular, but only in very small increments as opposed to gross measure most people are used to.

It wasn't always so...




READ THAT TWICE!

As you can see, the method you describe yourself as using is still crimping and has been since reloading using hand tools and replaceable dies was invented.
Crimping just means closing the neck around the seated bullet. You do still crimp, just not tightly.

I think this discussion is more about how people have come to understand things perception wise than actual practice. I flare the belled case mouth on cast bullet loads, regardless of how the cast bullet is lubed - plated, painted, shrink wrapped, waxed, oiled... whatever. If it's cast then it's at least 0.001" larger in diameter than the resized case neck and there needs to be a gap to prevent shaving. Jacketed not so much but it still requires a slight belling of the case mouth to create clearance.

 

[CQB45ACP]

1. Resize/Deprime
2. Prime
3. Neck Expand (The die that does the case flare also does the neck expanding. You just don't run the case all the way up to the flare.)
4. Powder and bullet

Dies for bottleneck cases do the neck expanding during the resize/deprime step.
Dies for straight wall cases have a separate step for case neck expanding/bell mouthing. The die has an internal cylinder that flares out at the top. The bottom of the cylinder expands the neck, and the flare at the top does the bell mouth.

To avoid the bell mouth, just run the case up short of where the internal die flares out. If you look inside the die, it will make sense.

I understand the words and I’ve taken dies apart to clean the stem & understand the operation, but just never heard of only partially following through on the function. Not sure why I would do that way versus adjusting the die to avoid belling the mouth. What would be the purpose?

But never mind, it’s belling/flaring the mouth that I have determined IS necessary to seat the bullets (esp. without scraping off plating) AND since I’ll be taper crimping anyway to pass the gauge/plunk test I see no point to making it more complex.

Thanks for the mental exercise though

 

[CQB45ACP]

I think that might be where the terminology gap exists: using an expander bells the case - it is stepped, like a bell - but does not necessarily flare the case mouth. When a portion of the neck is made larger than the resized base or portion of the neck, then the case is said to be "bell-shaped." That's newer terminology in loading vernacular. By the same token, reducing the neck back to the same size as the resized case body plus the bullet "crimps" the brass around the bullet. So yes, you are still belling and crimping, using any vernacular, but only in very small increments as opposed to gross measure most people are used to.

It wasn't always so...
View attachment 1084131

View attachment 1084132

READ THAT TWICE!

As you can see, the method you describe yourself as using is still crimping and has been since reloading using hand tools and replaceable dies was invented.
Crimping just means closing the neck around the seated bullet. You do still crimp, just not tightly.

I think this discussion is more about how people have come to understand things perception wise than actual practice. I flare the belled case mouth on cast bullet loads, regardless of how the cast bullet is lubed - plated, painted, shrink wrapped, waxed, oiled... whatever. If it's cast then it's at least 0.001" larger in diameter than the resized case neck and there needs to be a gap to prevent shaving. Jacketed not so much but it still requires a slight belling of the case mouth to create clearance.

Thanks, yes, I understand the process and equipment and yes absolutely in the terminology/vernacular I have come to understand. Appreciate everyone’s help.

 

[Charlie98]

Everything in moderation...

I flare my brass enough not to damage the bullet during seating, I crimp or taper crimp enough to take the flare out/hold the bullet/provide positive ignition... or any combination thereof, depending on which cartridge we are talking about.

FWIW... I have a taper crimp die for .41MAG, which I use quite a bit. Granted, I lay it in pretty heavy... for a taper crimp... but I've found it's easier on the brass (no brass ring shards like with a heavy roller...) and gets the job done with midrange loads (think Unique.)

As far as 'saving' the brass from case mouth cracks... I can probably count the cases lost to that on one hand, minus the odd lot of very hard Starline .38 brass I had many years ago, which basically started to crack after the 1st firing. Losing a case to a fatigue crack of some sort, whether it be a case mouth or the case itself, is all part of the process. Nothing lasts forever.

 

[Jim Watson]

I flare the dickens out of the case mouth; I have seen copper scraped off of plated and jacketed bullets by no or insufficient flare. I have had bullets topple over as the press cycles and seat whopsided, so I flare.
I tried one of those Lyman "M" type Dillon "powder funnels" but it did not have enough shoulder to set the bullet square.
I don't worry about case life, I am likely to lose a 9mm before I can wear it out.

I am getting some case splits in .45s that I am able to pick up to reload where I shoot that gun, but they are sidewall cracks, not mouth splits where flare and crimp work the metal. Sizing and firing are doing the wear.

I taper crimp enough to get a light mark on the bullet; I had trouble with .45 plated bullet setback so I went with a "U" sizing die and a bit of real crimp. My next purchase will be coated bullets that load easier with regular sizing and very little crimp.

I am going by what Black Hills does on commercial .45 SWC reloads meant to work in all customers' guns. They are seated a bit shorter than Internet Standard and have appreciable crimp.

Note: I shoot IDPA and USPSA, not 50 yard slow fire with same lot brass and match weighed bullets; reliability is more important than X ring accuracy.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I know anecdotal evidence is about worthless but in the interests of jocularity, I was cleaning up and rebagging/reboxing some of my long-forgotten brass and came across a bag of Federal .38Spl cases - 147 of them, cleaned, deprimed and resized - which were from boxes of new ammo I bought during the FIRST Bush administration! I had written the date and progress in black magic marker "1/90 - RTL." The bag was yellowed but still whole. Probably 125gr Nyclad's. I liked them for a while in the Lawman and Trooper.
Yes, I will be loading them up, soon.

 

[jmorris]

Three bullets seemed to seat fine but one (a Berry’s) scraped off some plating. I HATE THAT—ruining even one component is unacceptable to me.

That’s pretty much what I was talking about. If the combination of your components doesn’t allow for it (some do, some don’t) you must. Plated and coated bullets generally require some or a seater that holds the bullet perfectly as it’s seated.

Like this GSI feeder/seat tool head I use for my coated 45 ACP.

I can’t get away with flare/bell like that with other 45 ACP seaters I have. That’s a seated bullet waiting on the “crimp” and a charged case ready for a bullet to seated.

 

[n2omike]

Feel free to zoom in and look at these. No unsightly bulges or crooked bullets. All fired just fine. All loaded by running the cases into the expander but short of the flare. No bell mouth or crimp required. I feel this lengthens the life of the brass and cuts out a needless step for what I'm doing. Your mileage may vary...

PS... This is very mixed brass, so not all of it is going to be the same length. If bell mouthing and crimping, this causes some bells to be much larger than others, and some crimps to be much more than others. It's easier to simply AVOID all that... hence the above procedure.

 

[Walkalong]

Everyone has to refine their process to suit them, their dies, and their components.

One of the biggest pluses for me in .45 ACP was going to a Redding Competition seater die. It really helps seat them straighter and I can just dial back and forth between bullets

I also now use a Lyman M-Die or the Redding or RCBS copy cats for most pistol calibers.

 

[CQB45ACP]

Feel free to zoom in and look at these. No unsightly bulges or crooked bullets. All fired just fine. All loaded by running the cases into the expander but short of the flare. No bell mouth or crimp required. I feel this lengthens the life of the brass and cuts out a needless step for what I'm doing. Your mileage may vary...

PS... This is very mixed brass, so not all of it is going to be the same length. If bell mouthing and crimping, this causes some bells to be much larger than others, and some crimps to be much more than others. It's easier to simply AVOID all that... hence the above procedure.

View attachment 1084137

Thanks

My 45acp test this AM showed I cannot do it this way at least not with the components I used. Nor can I cut out my typical expansion/crimping steps.

I just can’t see how doing it your way would change my rounds and enable passing the gauge.

Yours cuts out one step—the crimp—while keeping and making slightly more complex the prior step—the expansion. Its more complex because you have to “know” when to quit raising the case into the die to get a partial expansion vs. just adjusting the die (stem) and raising the case all the way. Right?

But, circling back, why do any of this at all? Is it really necessary? I didn’t read other folks comments to include this expansion but not belling—what I’ll now call a semi-expansion.

Seems they were saying they just didn’t do either or they did both. But nothing in between. Isn’t yours the in between?

I’m not try to be argumentative. But my brain hurts.

 

[reddog81]

I flare and then remove the flare from .45 ACP and 9mm loads. If I sized a case and then was able to seat a bullet without running it through some die to expand the case mouth I would assume the sizing die was not setup correctly or defective. For me it works much better to bell the case mouth a bit so the bullet can seat straight with ease.

I'm not too worried about case life of .45 ACP and 9x19. I probably have hundreds of cases that have been fired dozens of times with many thousands in reserve. If I loose a few to split mouths every year I'm fine with that.

 

[n2omike]

Yours cuts out one step—the crimp—while keeping and making slightly more complex the prior step—the expansion. Its more complex because you have to “know” when to quit raising the case into the die to get a partial expansion vs. just adjusting the die (stem) and raising the case all the way. Right?

Not more complex. Simply adjust the die so at full stroke, the case does not reach the bell.
This keeps things more consistent, as with the extremely mixed brass I deal with, not all of it is the same length.
When dealing with brass of different lengths, the bells and crimps are not consistent. Longer brass will bell more and crimp harder. I'd rather avoid that. Plus, the bell/crimp put a pretty steep bend in the cases, which will more quickly work harden them.

It's what works for me. Your mileage may vary. But if you look at that pic of my finished 9mm, you'll see very few cases that match. Seems like almost every single one is different! ....and they all work just fine and are very consistent using this method.

The last velocity test I did on the chrono using 3.8 grains of HP38 over an RMR 147 grain FMJ out of my 5" barrel Canik...
This was with rounds out of the container in my above post. No complaints. I have a feeling my results are better than if I tried to bell/crimp them all...
988
987
998
983
983

P.S. My powder measure is the Hornady Lock N Load with the pistol drum. Their pistol drum maxes out at around 15 grains or so, so it's fairly consistent with the lower charge weights.

 

[CQB45ACP]

Not more complex. Simply adjust the die so at full stroke, the case does not reach the bell.
This keeps things more consistent, as with the extremely mixed brass I deal with, not all of it is the same length.
When dealing with brass of different lengths, the bells and crimps are not consistent. Longer brass will bell more and crimp harder. I'd rather avoid that. Plus, the bell/crimp put a pretty steep bend in the cases, which will more quickly work harden them.

It's what works for me. Your mileage may vary. But if you look at that pic of my finished 9mm, you'll see very few cases that match. Seems like almost every single one is different! ....and they all work just fine and are very consistent using this method.

The last velocity test I did on the chrono using 3.8 grains of HP38 over an RMR 147 grain FMJ out of my 5" barrel Canik...
This was with rounds out of the container in my above post. No complaints. I have a feeling my results are better than if I tried to bell/crimp them all...
988
987
998
983
983

P.S. My powder measure is the Hornady Lock N Load with the pistol drum. Their pistol drum maxes out at around 15 grains or so, so it's fairly consistent with the lower charge weights.

Well as I said, my test this AM demonstrates this doesn’t work for my 45acp. They wouldn’t pass gauge even without ANY expansion regardless of belling, no belling or any other thing (beyond the seating of bullet that is).

And, BTW, that is how I adjust my expanding die but with just a slight hint of belling or flaring or whatevering is needed to seat bullet without damage.

Thanks again

Edit: I just taper crimped three and they dropped right into the gauge. Didn’t do the fourth because of the shaved plating.

 

[CQB45ACP]

I flare and then remove the flare from .45 ACP and 9mm loads. If I sized a case and then was able to seat a bullet without running it through some die to expand the case mouth I would assume the sizing die was not setup correctly or defective. For me it works much better to bell the case mouth a bit so the bullet can seat straight with ease.

I'm not too worried about case life of .45 ACP and 9x19. I probably have hundreds of cases that have been fired dozens of times with many thousands in reserve. If I loose a few to split mouths every year I'm fine with that.

I’m not worried about case life either—I’ll lose them before they crack as someone else said.