Who Doesn’t Bell & Crimp 45ACP or 9mm?

[CoalTrain49]

I don't think you can not do that with range brass. At least that's my experience. I think the reason is sizing has a different effect on well used brass. Sometimes it just doesn't size well enough to have proper neck tension. I'm too cheap to buy new brass. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

[CQB45ACP]

I don't think you can not do that with range brass. At least that's my experience. I think the reason is sizing has a different effect on well used brass. Sometimes it just doesn't size well enough to have proper neck tension. I'm too cheap to buy new brass. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Well it’s a fine story. And cheapness is goodness.

 

[mdi]

I'm in the "flare everything" camp. Flares in case mouths don't need to be .030" bells, just enough to allow straight bullet seating without having to balance/feed a bullet into the seating die. If there is any less case life I have not experienced any. I have some revolver brass that has been reloaded many times (I normally don't count but I know 38 Specials, 45 ACPs and 44 Magnums that are 20+ times through my presses). I have reloaded thousands of once fired "range brass" and get the same quality as if I uses new or once fired by me brass...

 

[jmorris]

Its more complex because you have to “know” when to quit raising the case into the die to get a partial expansion vs. just adjusting the die (stem) and raising the case all the way. Right?

It’s even more complex than it would appear at first glance. Most people I know do not trim 45 ACP or 9mm. The difference in case lengths also obviously effects the amount of bell/flare too. A shorter case is going to be less flare than a longer one. Simply because it goes into the die further.

 

[CQB45ACP]

It’s even more complex than it would appear at first glance. Most people I know do not trim 45 ACP or 9mm. The difference in case lengths also obviously effects the amount of bell/flare too. A shorter case is going to be less flare than a longer one. Simply because it goes into the die further.

For me, I just need to remember KISS. That’s the way I learned and in my sunset years, need to keep it.

Great advice from all though
Thanks

 

[Mark_Mark]

anybody try the Noe M plugs???? best thing since slice bread!

 

[CQB45ACP]

anybody try the Noe M plugs???? best thing since slice bread!

Once again you’ve stumped the panel.

 

[Charlie98]

anybody try the Noe M plugs???? best thing since slice bread!

Once again you’ve stumped the panel.

I finally got some NOE inserts for my .348WCF... correct ones. I was using a .35REM M-die for a while, because Lyman doesn't make an M-die in .348... but that's a .01" difference between bullets. It worked, but was not optimum.

I also now use a Lyman M-Die or the Redding or RCBS copy cats for most pistol calibers.

I must admit... I'm curious about that. Why? Because of cast bullets?

 

[Mark_Mark]

I finally got some NOE inserts for my .348WCF... correct ones. I was using a .35REM M-die for a while, because Lyman doesn't make an M-die in .348... but that's a .01" difference between bullets. It worked, but was not optimum.



I must admit... I'm curious about that. Why? Because of cast bullets?

M-expanders are the Best!!!!

 

[Mark_Mark]

Once again you’ve stumped the panel.

these things! they are really nice to seat bullets. Very precise

 

[jmorris]

For me, I just need to remember KISS. That’s the way I learned and in my sunset years, need to keep it.

I completely understand that. The “looser” you can make tolerance’s the “easier” it is to create something.

Said a different way, the more variation you are able to accept as “the same”, the easier it is to make you happy.

 

[dcarr]

these things! they are really nice to seat bullets. Very precise

View attachment 1084252

It turns out I have a lee universal die that fit these things, having enough trouble expanding (not cast) that I am seriously thinking about buying some of these noe for 9mm and .357 if i could figure out which to buy. Not smart enough to accurately /correctly measure the two freebees that come with the lee die.

 

[Mark_Mark]

It turns out I have a lee universal die that fit these things, having enough trouble expanding (not cast) that I am seriously thinking about buying some of these noe for 9mm and .357 if i could figure out which to buy. Not smart enough to accurately /correctly measure the two freebees that come with the lee die.

I had to start a thread to figure out which ones to buy! Good luck, because I don’t have the answers

 

[Mn Fats]

Jumping in late, but the only crimping I do is on rounds where there may be excess stress or pressure on the bullet. Lever actions or tube fed.

I've never crimped a 45 ACP or 9mm and have had zero issues so far.

 

[LiveLife]

anybody try the Noe M plugs???? best thing since slice bread!

I used to think the same but have you read this comparison done by American Handgunner?

https://americanhandgunner.com/gear/crooked-seated-bullets-and-accuracy/

Findings from the article may indicate reduction of neck tension to overshadow benefit of "straight seated" bullets - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-runout-on-pistol-loads.904700/#post-12274078

"25 yard group sizes from Ransom Rest:

• Straight: 2.51 - 1.92 - 2.17 - 1.64 - 2.41 = 2.51" - 75 shot
• Crooked: 1.84 - 1.67 - 2.22 - 1.78 - 2.48 = 2.55" - 75 shot
• Lyman M: 1.63 - 1.82 - 2.16 - 2.51 - 2.63 = 2.76" - 75 shot
• Redding: 2.02 - 2.19 - 1.07 - 3.02 - 1.98 = 3.10" - 75 shot"

I know, I know ... we may have to do another myth busting thread on this ... and I don't have a ransom rest. Maybe @jmorris could help out with his awesome solid pistol mount.

 

[Mark_Mark]

I used to think the same but have you read this comparison done by American Handgunner?

https://americanhandgunner.com/gear/crooked-seated-bullets-and-accuracy/

Findings from the article may indicate reduction of neck tension to overshadow benefit of "straight seated" bullets - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-runout-on-pistol-loads.904700/#post-12274078

"25 yard group sizes from Ransom Rest:

• Straight: 2.51 - 1.92 - 2.17 - 1.64 - 2.41 = 2.51" - 75 shot
• Crooked: 1.84 - 1.67 - 2.22 - 1.78 - 2.48 = 2.55" - 75 shot
• Lyman M: 1.63 - 1.82 - 2.16 - 2.51 - 2.63 = 2.76" - 75 shot
• Redding: 2.02 - 2.19 - 1.07 - 3.02 - 1.98 = 3.10" - 75 shot"

I know, I know ... we may have to do another myth busting thread on this ... and I don't have a ransom rest. Maybe @jmorris could help out with his awesome solid pistol mount.

crooked bullets bother me! don’t care how accurate they are, it’s the principal

 

[CQB45ACP]

Jumping in late, but the only crimping I do is on rounds where there may be excess stress or pressure on the bullet. Lever actions or tube fed.

I've never crimped a 45 ACP or 9mm and have had zero issues so far.

So to be clear, that means no expander die and no crimp function in the seating die either? Just size/prime/seat? That’s efficiency.

 

[mdi]

I would challenge someone to measure the case lengths of some 9mm or 45 ACP brass, take the longest and shortest load some bullets, deflare (if revolver cartridge is loaded, crimp) and compare neck tension. I do not trim any handgun brass and I do not experience any problems from "varying case length affecting neck tension/crimping"...

 

[n2omike]

I would challenge someone to measure the case lengths of some 9mm or 45 ACP brass, take the longest and shortest load some bullets, deflare (if revolver cartridge is loaded, crimp) and compare neck tension. I do not trim any handgun brass and I do not experience any problems from "varying case length affecting neck tension/crimping"...

I was expanding and crimping 44 Mag and 50AE... with various brands... and found the bell and crimp to not be consistent at full stroke on the press.
Haven't done the same test on 9mm and 45. I simply run the expander just short of the bell... and call it good. No problems.
I DID experiment with not even using the expander on 9mm, and there was a huge variation between brands/ages of brass in regards to neck tension. Running the expander just short of the bell helped with this immensely.

 

[cfullgraf]

I do flare my handgun cases but only enough for the bullet to sit square on the case mouth. I also chamfer the inside edge of the case mouth to reduce the chance of shaving the bullet.

On semi-auto cases and some low power revolver cartridges, I remove the flare with a taper crimp die.

Heavy load revolver cases are trimmed to the same length and roll crimped.

I do not use bullets without a cannelure in heavily loaded cartridges.

I’ve never had luck seating the bullets without some flare. I think I have a 32 cal M style expander but I got is shortly before the current round of shortages when my reloading activities have almost stopped completely. So, I do not much experience with the M die.

 

[LiveLife]

I would challenge someone to measure the case lengths of some 9mm or 45 ACP brass, take the longest and shortest load some bullets, deflare (if revolver cartridge is loaded, crimp) and compare neck tension.

Sounds like a myth busting challenge and I accept that challenge.

 

[CQB45ACP]

Sounds like a myth busting challenge and I accept that challenge.

No surprise to the rest of us! Look forward to the results. Lee’s second edition actually mentions this briefly.

 

[LiveLife]

case lengths ... longest and shortest ... and compare neck tension

Look forward to the results.

We actually delved into some of this in the original "Neck tension ... bullet setback" myth busting thread where we focused on case wall thickness - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...neck-tension-and-bullet-setback.830072/page-4

What I found significant was that average case wall thickness at case mouth (0.100" below case mouth) where we apply taper crimp is quite thin (Around .011"+) and amount of neck tension applied at this point is readily overshadowed by neck tension from thicker case wall (Around .012"-.014") further down the case neck where bullet base is seated to (Around 0.200" below case mouth).

And for these reasons, it explains why applying more taper crimp won't necessarily improve neck tension while seating the bullet deeper will.

For the new "case lengths ... longest and shortest ... and compare neck tension" myth busting thread, I already have an educated opinion as to how the results would show as shorter cases will have thinner part of the case mouth bit shorter with thicker case wall portion of case neck overshadowing most of neck tension but it will be interesting what the actual bullet setback measurements show.

Looking forward to the myth busting.

 

[mdi]

In theory perhaps longer cases would allow more neck tension and crimp, but in real life with average to experienced reloaders .010" won't make any noticeable difference in performance (I have measured a bunch of 44 Magnum brass and the biggest variation in case length (IIRC) was about .006"-.007" in my once fired stash, mixed headstamps.)...

I just processed about 120 9mm cases, mixed headstamp and when using my M die I definitely felt differences. Blazer seemed to be the easiest with thinnest walls and some "Tech" (??) cases took much more effort to expand, thicker walls. Yep a few thousandths difference in case walls can affect neck tension...

(I was at the "range" last week and found a lot of brass on the ground with a lot of 9mm. I picked up about 200 9mm cases and a good number of those was "Tech", and some "IK 21". The Tech cases were average 15 gr heavier than R-P, FED., or Winchester, and was more difficult to size and flare. I'll reload them separately and run them over my new Prochrono DLX

 

[higgite]

I DID experiment with not even using the expander on 9mm, and there was a huge variation between brands/ages of brass in regards to neck tension. Running the expander just short of the bell helped with this immensely.

Was neck tension too loose on any of them or some were just looser or tighter than others?