Soonerpesek
Member
But that’s just my opinion. And get off my lawn.
HAHAHAH.........!!!
But that’s just my opinion. And get off my lawn.
what he said, except not for 50 yearsFor some reason there are a few who don't consider a "Taper Crimp" a crimp ...
well ... when it comes to loading the 45 acp and 9mm Luger ... I bell the mouth to get the bullet started and Taper Crimp the round after seating the bullet ... and that's been working just fine for over 50 years .
Call it whatever you want ... that's how I do it and will continue doing it .
I don't need no new way of walking .
Gary
On a thread on another topic the above subject came up and I was curious how common it was to not bell & crimp.
Since I only load 45ACP & 9mm that’s all I’m interested in but since when has a thread stayed on topic?
No, you are and did.I’m already confused since the thread title is “who doesn’t..” , and I don’t, so I guess I’m not supposed to post?
I just gave the no flare thus no crimp a try with 45ACP and it’s a no go. Tried four and none passed two different gauges. Didn’t bother plunking.
I dropped each case in a case gauge to ensure they were sized but not expanded.
Huh? With 45ACP?You still need to do the neck expanding... and need to deburr the case mouths.
Huh? With 45ACP?
I think that might be where the terminology gap exists: using an expander bells the case - it is stepped, like a bell - but does not necessarily flare the case mouth. When a portion of the neck is made larger than the resized base or portion of the neck, then the case is said to be "bell-shaped." That's newer terminology in loading vernacular. By the same token, reducing the neck back to the same size as the resized case body plus the bullet "crimps" the brass around the bullet. So yes, you are still belling and crimping, using any vernacular, but only in very small increments as opposed to gross measure most people are used to.1. Resize/Deprime
2. Prime
3. Neck Expand (The die that does the case flare also does the neck expanding. You just don't run the case all the way up to the flare.)
4. Powder and bullet
I understand the words and I’ve taken dies apart to clean the stem & understand the operation, but just never heard of only partially following through on the function. Not sure why I would do that way versus adjusting the die to avoid belling the mouth. What would be the purpose?1. Resize/Deprime
2. Prime
3. Neck Expand (The die that does the case flare also does the neck expanding. You just don't run the case all the way up to the flare.)
4. Powder and bullet
Dies for bottleneck cases do the neck expanding during the resize/deprime step.
Dies for straight wall cases have a separate step for case neck expanding/bell mouthing. The die has an internal cylinder that flares out at the top. The bottom of the cylinder expands the neck, and the flare at the top does the bell mouth.
To avoid the bell mouth, just run the case up short of where the internal die flares out. If you look inside the die, it will make sense.
Thanks, yes, I understand the process and equipment and yes absolutely in the terminology/vernacular I have come to understand. Appreciate everyone’s help.I think that might be where the terminology gap exists: using an expander bells the case - it is stepped, like a bell - but does not necessarily flare the case mouth. When a portion of the neck is made larger than the resized base or portion of the neck, then the case is said to be "bell-shaped." That's newer terminology in loading vernacular. By the same token, reducing the neck back to the same size as the resized case body plus the bullet "crimps" the brass around the bullet. So yes, you are still belling and crimping, using any vernacular, but only in very small increments as opposed to gross measure most people are used to.
It wasn't always so...
View attachment 1084131
View attachment 1084132
READ THAT TWICE!
As you can see, the method you describe yourself as using is still crimping and has been since reloading using hand tools and replaceable dies was invented.
Crimping just means closing the neck around the seated bullet. You do still crimp, just not tightly.
I think this discussion is more about how people have come to understand things perception wise than actual practice. I flare the belled case mouth on cast bullet loads, regardless of how the cast bullet is lubed - plated, painted, shrink wrapped, waxed, oiled... whatever. If it's cast then it's at least 0.001" larger in diameter than the resized case neck and there needs to be a gap to prevent shaving. Jacketed not so much but it still requires a slight belling of the case mouth to create clearance.
Three bullets seemed to seat fine but one (a Berry’s) scraped off some plating. I HATE THAT—ruining even one component is unacceptable to me.
ThanksFeel free to zoom in and look at these. No unsightly bulges or crooked bullets. All fired just fine. All loaded by running the cases into the expander but short of the flare. No bell mouth or crimp required. I feel this lengthens the life of the brass and cuts out a needless step for what I'm doing. Your mileage may vary...
PS... This is very mixed brass, so not all of it is going to be the same length. If bell mouthing and crimping, this causes some bells to be much larger than others, and some crimps to be much more than others. It's easier to simply AVOID all that... hence the above procedure.
View attachment 1084137
Yours cuts out one step—the crimp—while keeping and making slightly more complex the prior step—the expansion. Its more complex because you have to “know” when to quit raising the case into the die to get a partial expansion vs. just adjusting the die (stem) and raising the case all the way. Right?
Well as I said, my test this AM demonstrates this doesn’t work for my 45acp. They wouldn’t pass gauge even without ANY expansion regardless of belling, no belling or any other thing (beyond the seating of bullet that is).Not more complex. Simply adjust the die so at full stroke, the case does not reach the bell.
This keeps things more consistent, as with the extremely mixed brass I deal with, not all of it is the same length.
When dealing with brass of different lengths, the bells and crimps are not consistent. Longer brass will bell more and crimp harder. I'd rather avoid that. Plus, the bell/crimp put a pretty steep bend in the cases, which will more quickly work harden them.
It's what works for me. Your mileage may vary. But if you look at that pic of my finished 9mm, you'll see very few cases that match. Seems like almost every single one is different! ....and they all work just fine and are very consistent using this method.
The last velocity test I did on the chrono using 3.8 grains of HP38 over an RMR 147 grain FMJ out of my 5" barrel Canik...
This was with rounds out of the container in my above post. No complaints. I have a feeling my results are better than if I tried to bell/crimp them all...
988
987
998
983
983
P.S. My powder measure is the Hornady Lock N Load with the pistol drum. Their pistol drum maxes out at around 15 grains or so, so it's fairly consistent with the lower charge weights.
I’m not worried about case life either—I’ll lose them before they crack as someone else said.I flare and then remove the flare from .45 ACP and 9mm loads. If I sized a case and then was able to seat a bullet without running it through some die to expand the case mouth I would assume the sizing die was not setup correctly or defective. For me it works much better to bell the case mouth a bit so the bullet can seat straight with ease.
I'm not too worried about case life of .45 ACP and 9x19. I probably have hundreds of cases that have been fired dozens of times with many thousands in reserve. If I loose a few to split mouths every year I'm fine with that.