Who here has no (gov)documentation of gun ownership?

[M2 Carbine]

mljdeckard
I do also wonder about the literal actual effect the 4473s have as far as tracking guns and gun owners.

Just how is it that filling out a 4473 equals registration? If the dealer has gone out of business, then I can see that being the case...but if they're still in business, or had a tragic accident in which all paperwork was lost, then how the heck is ATF supposed to know what you have?

I bought a 1911 from a dealer when living on the east Coast.
Sold the gun. It was used in a killing.
Detectives tracked me to Texas from the 4473 and called me.
I told them I sold the gun and had no idea where it was.
That was the end of the conversation.

 

[Wes Janson]

I bought a 1911 from a dealer when living on the east Coast.
Sold the gun. It was used in a killing.
Detectives tracked me to Texas from the 4473 and called me.
I told them I sold the gun and had no idea where it was.
That was the end of the conversation

But that's just it-they already HAD the serial number, because they already had the weapon in their possession. That doesn't do them any good in trying to figure out what's in your safe right now (although perhaps certain recent imaging technologies might be able to pull that one off).

 

[george29]

Zoogster, my man! You make some really great arguments but I have to ask you to shorten your posts so that those of us with IFADD (Internet Forum ADD) can also reap the benefits of your statements. I think I usually agree with much that you say, at least the parts that I read.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Today, 01:55 AM #27
Wes Janson

But that's just it-they already HAD the serial number, because they already had the weapon in their possession. That doesn't do them any good in trying to figure out what's in your safe right now (although perhaps certain recent imaging technologies might be able to pull that one off).
__________________

I guarantee that if I had the resources of the ATF I could find almost every 4473 that you filled out for some years past.

 

[mokin]

This thread reminds me of a conversation I had with some friends around a campfire a while back. It turned out that among the five of us some didn't care or mind filling out paperwork when purchasing from a dealer. A couple of the others of us were vehemently against it. We starterd discussing credit card/bank records and wondering how much information could be gleaned from going through one's financial records. As those are generally considered private our attention turned to the cataloges we revieved. We figured if some "gubmit" type decided to start a marketing research company and began purchasing mailing lists, even those who purchased FTF only would probably be recognized as gun owners.

 

[Amish_Bill]

I've mostly forgotten what firearms I've acquired in FTF sales and what I've rescued from a dealer's shelf. A modest number of the NICS records 'that are destroyed shortly after approval' likely still remain in systems somewhere, but as best I recall, they don't identify any further than handgun/longgun. We should also factor in that the bulk of my dealer purchases required no NICS check, as my CCW # on the form is a legal substitute. I also have never lived in a place that required registration....

Of course, the ATF has a short stack of other paperwork on me. Between my C&R FFL and the tax records the NFA keeps, there are a few items that are indeed directly linked to me. Bolt actions, SKSs, and suppressed machineguns -- my file must be really funny to read.

Oh, yes -- my preference. I prefer face to face deals. The price is often better and there is no extra tax to pay. Not to mention, dealers rarely meet you over lunch to close a sale.

 

[Bazooka Joe71]

I have plenty of both...Just how I want it.

Except all of my handguns have been purchased via FFL.

 

[Ian]

I seem to recall the cops compiling 4473s and visiting a multitude of AR15 purchasers back when the "DC sniper" incidents were in the news...

Of course, if you live in a state where private sales are legal, 4473s don't mean a whole lot. I've long since sold a bunch of the guns I've ever bought from dealers.

The attitude that I really don't get is the niche of folks who want pre-1899 guns that can be shipped interstate without going through an FFL. If they ever ban normal M91/30s, the cops will take your 1898 M91 anyway, and it'll cost you a good bit of time and money (and ALL your anonymity) to get it back, even though it may be totally legal to have. Just buy a private sale normal rifle for a third the cost and don't tell anyone about it.

 

[hso]

I like FTF dealing because the prices are lower.

I like FFL dealing because there are guarantees and warranties that can be called upon in the event of a problem.

I pay membership dues to several RKBA organizations, write letters, send email, make phone calls, and respond to new stories so that the politicians get the message that gun owners are not some isolated group on the margins of American society that can be demonized or ignored.

 

[BobbyQuickdraw]

The .gov didn't know about my guns until I moved to California. I had to report my handguns and now every purchase is put on file.

I asked the gun store owner about it. Basically they do my background check and if it comes back, they fill out all this paperwork, fingerprint me, and then keep it at the gun store - which doesn't make sense at all. The .gov never touches the paperwork unless the gun store goes out of business or they try to track down the serial number of my gun, they might be able to get back to that gunstore, then have them pull the paper out of a big cardboard box.

Seems kind of useless. But if the gun store does go out of business, they send all the paperwork to the ATF who is then supposed to digitize all of it and keep a record of it. Thats what he said, though that seems like a impromptu national registry of gun owners.

sigh.

 

[NetJunkie]

FTF is getting easier to track in some areas. Here in North Carolina you are required to obtain a permit or information from the buyer's CCW even on a FTF.

 

[Hawk]

I go out of my way to be a blip on the radar. It's my conjecture that greater numbers of gun owners would dissuade the grabbers more effectively than a nebulous number of "off book" owners or weapons.

I've nothing against FTFs - like 'em fine. But I don't go out of my way to avoid "on book" transactions.

A couple weeks ago I was able, for the first time, to cause one of those ATF "multiple handgun purchase" forms to be filled out. Woohoo!