Who to believe

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Colt400

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I have a 1911 feeding problem (imagine that!) In researching the problem, I've found experts who are SURE or "pretty sure" that the problem is:
-The ramps' geometry
-The ramps' smoothness
-The magazine
-Not enough lubrication
-Magazine sits too low
-Dirt
-Light rounds or limp wrist
-Link length (say that 5 times fast)
-Nosediving
-The mainspring
-The bullet(s)
-Cartridge length
-The extractor (???)


Reminds me of the old days:
"My car's not running right"
"You have a vacuum leak"
"But I think it might be the distributer, can you look at it?"
"Sorry buddy, this is a vacuum-leak-causes-all-ills shop. If you want it to be a distributer problem, you have to go see my cousin down the road; he thinks everything is a distributer problem....

Here's the question. Finally. The prejuidiced diagnosis. How does one avoid it? When you have a complex problem, is there any way to tell whether a well-meaning authoritative expert's diagnosis is one which should be regarded seriously? So far, the only path I can see is to try the least harmful prescriptions before the ones with potential to do harm, and if it's a tie, do the cheaper one first.

OK, if you're still reading this, I guess you want to know what the problem is. Thompson 10mm conversion slide/barrel kit on a Thompson 1911 receiver. Maybe a hundred rounds through it. Often jams with the bullet rammed onto the frame ramp, or it might start up the ramp and get high enough to jam on the barrel ramp. Case is not touching the ramps. If the bullet has jammed on the barrel ramp, slapping the magazine or bumping the slide will probably send her into battery. If jammed on the frame's ramp, then not.

Carbon steel. JHPs or FMJ truncated cones. Heavy main spring. Only tried two mags so far - no change. Very lightly polished ramp without changing geometry (I think). No appreciable change. Shortened cartridge length. Very little change if any. Happens more in the top half of mag stack than the bottom half, and never in the last 2 or 3 rounds. Checked for full cycle - tears polyurethane buffers up pretty bad in 50 rounds, so I'm pretty sure it's cycling fully.

Bought an elevated mag release catch and 2 mags from Tripp, which might fix the problem, but that's a hundred bucks, and I won't know if that was well-spent for at least a week....

But the real question remains: whether there's a way to judge the credibility of the experts. Anyone?
 
You forgot the "just plain old defective" option.

I'm not a gunsmith or 1911 guru, they are on here but it's certainly not me.

Also, welcome!
 
I am not a 1911 guy, so I cannot offer a "fix" to your problem. I can say there are millions of 1911 "experts" out there and while they all mean well, most of them are really only "experts" on giving advice that their uncles best friends, goldfishes aunts, tom cat told them. Hope you can get it shooting reliably, because one thing I do know about them is they are a blast to shoot. I would visit a reputable gunsmith and see what he can tell you.
 
I'm a 1911 guy. I'll apologize in advance for not proffering a concise solution to your exact problem, but I will paraphrase Jeff Cooper, (arguably) the originator of the 10mm in a 1911, aka "Bren Ten". IIRC, after experimenting with it for a couple of years, he concluded that it was too much and reverted to the .45 ACP as the best round for this platform.
 
Hate to recommend another forum on THR, but take a look on 1911forum.com. The elite of the 1911 world hang out there. Logman is their equivalent to rc model here.
 
Those problems are like the "my car doesn't run right." There is no way to tell just what is wrong by a description on a site like this. I could say it sounds like feed lips, but then it could be a rough breech face, a sharp extractor hook, or a dozen other things.

If the kit is under warranty, send the thing back (with the frame) and let them figure it out. If not, find a pistolsmith and take/send it to him for a look see.

Jim
 
>I would visit a reputable gunsmith and see what he can tell you.
3 of those suggestions were from pro gunsmiths I consulted. All of those suggestions reverberate throughout the net.

>So, this is with reloads?? What does it do with factory loads?
Same thing.

>Hate to recommend another forum on THR, but take a look on 1911forum.com
>If the kit is under warranty, send the thing back
>Please post pictures of the gun in misfeeding state.

Missing the point, really. How does one sort the advice one gets? How do you decide whether the pro gunsmith is giving you good advice before you pay him a lot of money and maybe let him ruin your baby? This question may have deeper ramifications.

How can you determine whether the "nutritionist" is giving you good scientific data or a politically inspired spiel ("Cut back on red meat because cows are bad for the planet")(From this weeks' news).

How do you determine whether the guy telling you how to live is a prophet of God or a cult leader (don't drink the kool-aid)?

How do YOU determine the expertise rating of the "Pro"? I really want to know. This started out as a gun question, and it still is, but it's getting deep at my end of the pool.
 
Anyone of them could be right as they are some of the things that could be wrong. You have the answers to the questions that can eliminate them one by one as a cause of the problem until you find the culprit(s).

Kind of like a crying baby, it can't tell you what's wrong you just have to guess and/or rule out possible problems one by one until its quite. This can be easy or quite difficult, you just don't know.
 
Did any of the smiths you consulted actually shoot the gun and evaluate the issue or were you just consulting by phone? Solving the problem will require hands on time to narrow it down from the possible to the actual.
 
>I would visit a reputable gunsmith and see what he can tell you.
3 of those suggestions were from pro gunsmiths I consulted. All of those suggestions reverberate throughout the net.

>So, this is with reloads?? What does it do with factory loads?
Same thing.

>Hate to recommend another forum on THR, but take a look on 1911forum.com
>If the kit is under warranty, send the thing back
>Please post pictures of the gun in misfeeding state.

Missing the point, really. How does one sort the advice one gets? How do you decide whether the pro gunsmith is giving you good advice before you pay him a lot of money and maybe let him ruin your baby? This question may have deeper ramifications.

How can you determine whether the "nutritionist" is giving you good scientific data or a politically inspired spiel ("Cut back on red meat because cows are bad for the planet")(From this weeks' news).

How do you determine whether the guy telling you how to live is a prophet of God or a cult leader (don't drink the kool-aid)?

How do YOU determine the expertise rating of the "Pro"? I really want to know. This started out as a gun question, and it still is, but it's getting deep at my end of the pool.

I wrenched at a garage.

My boss would tell the people that called: "I can't diagnose your problem over the phone".
 
First...don't polish the feed ramp. Many 1911s have been taken from simple problems to complicated problems...read that as expensive...by polishing the feed ramp.

By a large margin, most problems either have the magazine at the root, or the extractor.

With the extractor, it's most often too much deflection.

On the magazine question, I wish I had a dollar for each and every delinquent 1911 I've "fixed" by handing the disgruntled owner a few of my magazines and having him try again. Many of'em have been fairly gobsmacked when they came to understand that their 30-dollar Wundermag was to blame for all their consternation.

It's usually somethin' simple. When you hear hoofbeats, look for horses...not Zebras.
 
So how do you know whom to trust? You don't. It's that simple. If you don't feel you can trust anyone, time to take to your bed and pull up the covers.

It seems to me that the thinking is that there is one problem and that an expert should be able to immediately spot it (even at long distance) and correct it. Things are rarely that simple. Even an expert may well try several fixes before finding the actual trouble. But a real expert won't do irreparable harm while trying different solutions, while cousin Pete with the Dremel tool might.

Jim
 
>Did any of the smiths you consulted actually shoot the gun and evaluate the issue or were you just consulting by phone? Solving the problem will require hands on time to narrow it down from the possible to the actual.

No. I’m trying to find someone who is very well qualified to send it to. It’s WAY too expensive to send it out a second time, and Dremel Dave might even make it worse.

>My boss would tell the people that called: "I can't diagnose your problem over the phone".

Not looking for that (but it would be nice). Just looking for a REAL expert.

>It seems to me that the thinking is that there is one problem and that an expert should be able to immediately spot it (even at long distance) and correct it.

That also would be nice, but too much to really hope for.

>But a real expert won't do irreparable harm while trying different solutions, while cousin Pete with the Dremel tool might.

And that highlights my point. How does one eliminate the false experts without having to pay for each one, the delivery costs to and from, and the damage they did?
 
OMT: I got my new mags (TRIPP) and elevated mag catch/release and installed them. It's loading, but the bullet is striking the ramp HARD. When I let the slide go forward slowly, the top rounds in the magazine nosedive as the slide pushes on the top of the rim; the bullets are striking the bottom of the barrel ramp and stick there. Done quickly, it loads - hard. I can actually feel the gun jar when the bullet hits the ramp.
 
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One thing at a time...

I've been guilty of this myself, but by changing two things (mags and catch/release), you have introduced uncertainty as to what might fix or cause your issues. Put the old mag release back in and try the new magazines. Put the new mag release in and try the old mags.
 
Add to the list. Rim of brass to large or face of bolt undersize. The brass rim has to slide under the extractor as it slides up the bolt face. If the extractor is to tight, it slows the feeding process, resulting in a jam. The shape of the extractor is important also. A bevel is needed on the lower area.
th_BoltFace.jpg
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Perhaps we can suggest a qualified smith if you tell us where you live (general area of a state if you don't want to be specific) and how far you're willing to drive to deliver or if you are willing to ship to someone. Also, which brand and specific model as different brands have their own record of peculiarities. If it is a Springfield Armory I suggest calling them up and getting a return authorization. Their customer service is superb. Others report the Rock Island has been providing good service on their guns, too.
 
Oh - great idea! Center around Phenix City - Huntsville, Alabama, please. Though I am willing to ship to a KNOWN expert. It's a Thompson 1911 with a Thompson 10mm add-on kit.

And just so y'all don't think I'm totally stupid, I tried the mags before adding the elevated mag catch. It started loading with the new mags, but had that thump. There wasn't a thump before because it wasn't loading. Can't blame the thump on the mags. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that the kit's barrel ramp is mal-formed. The bullet hits it HARD before it continues into the chamber. Neither the shell rim, nor the bolt face, are involved at this point, as the after end of the cartridge is still in the mag.
 
A good picture would help, if you can do it.

Lay the barrel in the frame bed, pushed rearward as far as it can go. Take the picture from behind and slightly above.

Then, take another one from the same place...without the barrel...to show the feed ramp.

And just for grins, flip the slide upside down and see if your extractor looks like this. An example of too much deflection...too much of the tensioning wall in the breech area will cause or contribute to the conditions you're seeing. This one has about twice the deflection that it needs to have.

ZDeflection_zps7ba1f5b6.jpg
 
I don't believe the Thompson 10mm has been made in several years (since before Kahr bought them). That brings its own set of issues as the pre Kahr guns were of dubious quality. Improperly cast (yes, cast, not machined) breach faces, mis-located locking lugs and holes, feed ramp geometry. Many smiths won't touch them. Did any of the smiths you asked know that it was an A-O?
That's not to put you off from trying to get it running. Just to give you a heads up on what to expect. It can be made to run. Could be a single one of the listed possibilities.... or a lot of them.... or something not listed. Maybe easily or it may take a lot of effort (money).

Maybe Jim Watson will see this and jump in with a recommendation for a smith in the Huntsville area.
 
Paging Jim Watson. Paging Jim Watson.

I haven't been around long enough to know his login name. I'd like to send him a message. Perhaps someone would send me his login in a message, please? (I don't want to be the one that revealed his secret identity) Or message him asking him to message me?
 
Psst! His login name is..... Jim Watson..... but don't tell anyone. He gets a little grumpy about that stuff. :)

Jim is usually pretty active here, but he spends time on a couple other forums, too. Just go up to post #8 in this thread and you'll find him.
 
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