why did the .30 Remington AR fail?

[The-Reaver]

I want a 454 AR

 

[twice barrel]

6mm Remington (started as 244 Remington), good cartridge, still around.

 

[sixgunner455]

6mm Remington (started as 244 Remington), good cartridge, still around.

Yep, still around, still a commercial flop when compared to the .243, even though it has some performance and design advantages over the .243.

 

[CMC]

I bought mine in 2011 and bought 200 rounds of FMJ when I got it for a dollar a round.
I use for deer and hog hunting, killed 2 deer with it last season.
I reload so it is not a big deal.
Last october I was able to buy another 100 rounds of FMJ before the crazyness started.
So far I only had one case spilt , so brass is good.
I load 110 gr sierras for plinking , just loaded me 60 rounds this weekend.
you can load the 110 gr bullets to 3000 fps.
I hunt with the barnes 130 gr ttsx with great results.
It maybe dead but not to me.

 

[MCMXI]

Rem decided to make the bolt face proprietary instead of keeping the .284 Win/.308 rim diameter - presumably for better feeding, or maybe safety (current bolts with the .308 Win diameter can't handle the pressure of the .30 RAR - for example the .458 SOCOM bolt).

The .450 Bushmaster has an MAP of 38,500 psi whereas the .30 Rem AR has an MAP of 55,000 psi. So if Remington had designed the rim of the .30 Rem AR to be 0.473" like the .308 Win and .450 Bushmaster, what would have prevented someone with a .450 Bushmaster upper from swapping out the barrel for a .30 Rem AR? Does anyone here know if a .450 Bushmaster bolt can handle 55,000 psi? Obviously we know that a .223 Rem bolt can, but the bolt face for the BM is opened up considerably to accommodate a 0.473" case head over the .378" .223 Rem case head.

 

[Lloyd Smale]

Name one cartridge in the last 50 years that Remington has successfully launched and it took off, other then the 7mm RM.

id say the 35rem has been around longer then most of us and still sells. Also look at the wildcat rounds remington brought from wildcat status to factory status like the 22250 2506 257 roberts 35 whelen

 

[68wj]

The 30 RAR shares several characteristics with Remington's previous AR-15 venture, the 6.8 SPC. Both share parts commonality with most rifle components save the bolt and barrel (neither of which are proprietary, just different). Both require cartridge specific magazines. The RAR is, however, more powerful than the SPC yet shares shelf space with the 300 SAUM while the SPC is still continuing to increase its presence.

Remington pushed the SPC as the latest and greatest when it came out, but then didn't get the momentum they wanted and backed off. A few saw potential in it and put their money on the table. Silver State Armory manufactured new brass and developed better cartridges. A few others in the industry (cottage and larger) also contributed. The improvements were minute, but began to add up enough that others took notice. It never was or will be a .270 Win in an AR-15, but real world performance levels are on par with initial claims.

This never happened with the RAR for some reason. The potential is there, but it never garnered a following. It still could follow the SPC path and become successful in spite of Remington's repeated pump and dump practice.

 

[kludge]

Does anyone here know if a .450 Bushmaster bolt can handle 55,000 psi? Obviously we know that a .223 Rem bolt can, but the bolt face for the BM is opened up considerably to accommodate a 0.473" case head over the .378" .223 Rem case head.

That's just it... Force = Pressure * Area, so the force on the bolt face would be...

55000 * (0.378/2)^2 * 3.14 = 6169 lbf for the .223, and

38500 * (0.473/2)^2 * 3.14 = 6791 lbf for the .450 Bushmaster/.458 SOCOM

If you throw 55kpsi on the .473" bolt face you get...

55000 * (0.473/2)^2 * 3.14 = 9660 lbf.

In my personal opinion, this is why Remington made the .30 RAR with a different rim diameter than the .284 Win parent case.

 

[MCMXI]

In my personal opinion, this is why Remington made the .30 RAR with a different rim diameter than the .284 Win parent case.

You're correct in your assumption. Cases with a rebated rim are more difficult to manufacture since they require additional steps, but the only reason for the .492" head was so that a .30 Rem AR couldn't be shot in an AR originally chambered for .450 Bushmaster. This wasn't an easy decision for the lead engineer and it may have limited the commercial success of the cartridge but I think he made the right decision given his options.

Also, bolt thrust isn't always a simple calculation since another thing to consider is the difference in bearing surface between the outside of the case and the chamber when comparing .30 Rem AR to .450 BM. The .450 BM has considerably more bearing surface. In addition, every .450 BM has to pass a proof load test but the min and max average proof pressures are 51,500 psi and 55,000 psi respectively. Contrast that to the min and max proof load pressures for the .223 Rem at 73,500 psi and 78,500 psi respectively. I wouldn't want to shoot .30 Rem AR using a .450 BM bolt.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Remington could have used a .473" case head and avoided any safety concerns over 450BM bolts by simply headspacing the bolt face to a different depth much the same way a 6.5g bolt is different than a 7.62x39 bolt.

Let's face it Remington is a company on a long term FAIL trend. Ask yourselves this , with all the advancements and new firearms we've seen these past 5 years how many truly new things has Remington offered?

 

[MCMXI]

Remington could have used a .473" case head and avoided any safety concerns over 450BM bolts by simply headspacing the bolt face to a different depth much the same way a 6.5g bolt is different than a 7.62x39 bolt.

But it would still be proprietary.

Let's face it Remington is a company on a long term FAIL trend. Ask yourselves this , with all the advancements and new firearms we've seen these past 5 years how many truly new things has Remington offered?

I haven't seen many "truly new things" from any other companies either ... nothing that I want anyway. I would be interested to see your list of "all the advancements and new firearms" you refer to. Maybe I missed something.

 

[R.W.Dale]

But it would still be proprietary.

I proprietary bolt is vastly preferable to proprietary brass




I haven't seen many "truly new things" from any other companies either ... nothing that I want anyway. I would be interested to see your list of "all the advancements and new firearms" you refer to. Maybe I missed something.

Are you living under a proverbial "gun rock"?


Every time I read a magazine or watch a gun TV show or listen to guntalk there's a newly introduced model or at the very least a new variation. Everything from pocket 9's to high cap mag bolt actions, plastic revolvers to PCC's from every company under the sun.....except remington...even glock has updated a few models in a minor way. During this same time frame remington has managed to pony up on the 1911 bandwagon (a decade late), sell someone else's AR's, ruin marlin and come out with another cheap ^$# 770 variation THAT'S IT. Basically everything they sell was designed BEFORE Eisenhower left office.

 

[MCMXI]

I proprietary bolt is vastly preferable to proprietary brass .

But neither is helpful for commercial success. Regardless, Remington still offers .30 Rem AR ammunition and rifles if consumers are interested. There's a new Hog Hammer coming using a Barnes 125gr TSX.

Every time I read a magazine or watch a gun TV show or listen to guntalk there's a newly introduced model or at the very least a new variation. Everything from pocket 9's to high cap mag bolt actions, plastic revolvers to PCC's from every company under the sun.....except remington...even glock has updated a few models in a minor way.

Clearly we have different ideas of what is novel, new or innovative.

 

[68wj]

But it would still be proprietary.


.

Not proprietary, just not a .223 bolt. It was SAAMI accepted and open to anyone.

 

[Hankszx12]

Just purchased 10 boxes of 30 AR ammo since it is back on the shelves. Might buy 10 more. I can make those 200 rounds last me 2 or 3 years if I have to. I have Remington R-15's in .204, .223, & .30 AR and all are excellent performers - phenomenally accurate and dependable... love using them on the coyotes and hogs here in Texas but the .30 AR had been a safe queen for the last 1.5 years due to Remington no producing any ammo. I know Remington's resources are dedicated to other rounds right now, so surprised when I found they had made another batch of .30AR. However I have learned my lesson the hard way... I will now save all .30 AR brass so as not to fall victim to Remington's neurotic ways. Hopefully they are really following through on the advertised "hog-hammer" edition of .30 AR ammo due on shelves in May or June of 2013. It may be very similar to the Accu-Tip round but $30 instead of $40 per box. Hopefully they will keep it coming too. I don't put a lot of ammo through any of my AR's.. Most shots are at critters, so maybe 3 to 5 shots on a hunting weekend, but it would be nice to not have to worry about a fun trip to the range with the kiddo occasionally..... but I am not holding my breath.... FYI - I pray every night that Hornady will produce this .30 AR round (preferably in a ballistic tip).... not holding my breath on that one either. (Photo - Big sow {at 80 yards} and young boar {at 30 yards} taken by moonlight at the cattle ranch in Athens, Texas with the .30 AR... shot the big one and then i squealed several times and brought the young boar right back to me from the woods... the strain was more than it could bear...... delicious!)

 

[kludge]

I've got two more boxes for sale if you want them. 39 rounds. I took one of them apart. Pretty sure I have all 40 pieces of brass.

 

[SSN Vet]

I think the 30 RAR rifle flopped because they were camouflage and not black... and I'm only half joking with that statement.

 

[rodinal220]

Remington should have just dropped the AR suffix and reintroduced the original .30 Remington cartridge. With modern propellants and pointy bullets they should have marketed the AR15 platform as the modern day M94 thutty-thutty.

 

[68wj]

Remington should have just dropped the AR suffix and reintroduced the original .30 Remington cartridge. With modern propellants and pointy bullets they should have marketed the AR15 platform as the modern day M94 thutty-thutty.

Maybe shorten it slightly to fit the AR mag well. I could see it working well necked down to a .277 bullet too. Sounds like a good plan.

 

[30 dirty 30's]

Had to put my 2 pennies in

Hey all, I'm new to the forum, saw this thread while looking for load data for this cartridge and it made me smile. I love this cartridge and I am sad that it didn't catch on, although I'm not surprised as it has it's share of faults.
I've owned one for a few years, I built the upper while working at the place that makes them for big green. It's a 20" barrel, deeply fluted, medium contour (think DCM) standard length gas system. Has a mini-miculek comp on it which has been over-bored to reduce back blast. A3 upper as they all have, and a carbon fiber handguard tube which I had to make a one-off barrel nut for.
Now, as to why it flopped:
As many have alluded to, marketing was a big factor. The whole "flies like a .223 hits like a .308" was bogus. It should have read something like this, you and your grandfather meet up at deer camp in the woods, grandpa pulls out his old Savage 99 in .300 savage, and you give a knowing smile then pull out your .30 RAR. Because that's what it is, a .300 savage in modern packaging. But then deer season's over and the camera shows you popping the pins to put a .223 upper on the lower and go target shooting. Of course big green would never pay homage to another company. I'm with whoever says their marketing dept comes from the alzheimer's ward.
Production-wise, it sucks. The larger bolt, which is there because 55,000 psi on the paper thin .450 bushy bolt is nutty, requires more than just a new bolt. The barrel extension is proprietary to the cartridge, as is the barrel nut. Also, the upper receiver is it's own specific upper receiver. Handguard choices are severely limited as the barrel nuts are specific. No a mil-spec barrel nut will not work, nor will any AR-10 nuts. And worst of all, the mags are totally specific, single stack boxes with one goofy winged feed lip and run $45 a piece. These detractions are why the .300 blackout will dominate the non 223 AR world, the .300 blackout has none of these problems, one only needs a barrel and everything else is generic AR-15, including mags.
Reloading sucks because of the proprietary brass, makes it almost like loading for some obscure relic unless you have a good stockpile.
Now all that aside, I love mine. Don't shoot it often but it doesn't disappoint. Rifle holds zero with a 3-9x40 extremely well. I regularly make cold bore X ring shots at 100yds with it. My pre-season check up consists of 1 rd at 25 yds to check rough zero and 1 rd at 100 yds to confirm zero. Then a couple rounds at 200yards to re-acquaint myself with the hold-over points on the scope. Shooting wise, it is absolutely lovely, exceptionally soft recoil and muzzle blast. My wife even enjoys shooting it. You can almost stare the bullets into the target.
Then, when deer season is over, I pop the pins and put my .223 upper back on the lower...
I load 150gr Hornady spire points to 2600-2700fps for deer hunting. Holds 1moa easily. Ran 12 rounds of this with beat up bullet noses, rapid fire on the bench into 1.5" at 100 yds. 125gr Nosler BT around 2800fps shoot same point of impact and are accurate enough for coyote. 110Hdy VMAX's @ 3000fps shoot .5 moa. I tried loading Hornady FTX .30-30 160gr bullets, but I couldn't seat them deeply enough to clear the lands. (funny profile) I want to load some 168gr bthp's, I think they'd make a great 200-300 yard target load for punishment of gong steel. It loves IMR 4198 with the lighter bullets, everything else I use IMR 8208xbr. CCI br small rifle primers.

 

[hentown]

.223 Remington's success has more to do with the military use of the 5.56 than anything else, especially not the marketing of a particular company.
__________________

Yep, EXACTLY like .45ACP, 9mm, 30-06, and .308!!!

I like the .300 Blackout. It's positives far outweigh its negatives for my purposes. I wouldn't judge a cartridge's performance by one internet guy's opinion regarding deer hunting. If deer hunting were so difficult, those 7-yr-old little girls wouldn't be killing all those big bucks with their SKSs!

 

[Bluehawk]

Name one cartridge in the last 50 years that Remington has successfully launched and it took off, other then the 7mm RM.

.223 Remington?

 

[dvdcrr]

I had a nice 6.8 spc and I feel that its basically a X39 and three times the price. 30 AR was something to look up to. Interestingly didn't remington come up with a whiz bang 30 cal autoloader about 80 years ago too?

https://www.google.com/search?q=rem...Sd2gXAg4GwBQ&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=683

 

[gpb]

Remington probably would have done better if they had re-introduced the Model 8 in the real 30 Remington. I think I would have bought one of those.

 

[hatt]

Name one cartridge in the last 50 years that Remington has successfully launched and it took off, other then the 7mm RM.

.280? Nope. .260? Nope. 7mm-08? Nope. The 7-08 had hope because it was already a very successful wildcat, and is now growing into it's own. The big green has had virtually nothing to do about it. The .260 is still around and growing because of match shooters mainly, and it will do well. The .280, as perfect as it is as a do-it-all cartridge, can't get out from the shadow of its brethren.

And you can't say the .25-06 either because that was already the most successful wildcat of all time for decades before Remington picked it up.

Name all those recent cartridges that took off? The most popular rounds are all going on 50 years old or older. Everything else is an oddball round. Out of the top ten selling rounds Rem has the .223, .22-250, and 7mm mag. And those are about 50 years old. Meeting your criteria.