Why doesn't LE prefer condition #1 ?

[Pizzagunner]

And because of this allegation; which I believe to be factual, it would also validate that probably, the 1911A1 was NOT MEANT, INTENDED, DESIGNED, etc... to be carried condition 1; AKA: Cocked and Locked. It couldn't have been if the military and police have such limited training; and the weapon WAS DESIGNED DIRECTLY FOR THEM.

You're forgetting one important factor--the 1911A1 was the last real "horse pistol," intended to also be used while mounted atop the predecessor of the tank and when two hands were likely not going to be available for pistol handling. IIRC, the original 1911 submitted did not have a thumb safety at all but that it was added at the insistence of the Army so that it could be kept out of the holster but "safed" at the same time, as being atop a horse at gallop wasn't conducive to reholstering. Cocked & Locked as a carry method was hence born.

C&L was also the "ready state" of the pistol from its initial adoption. Condition 3 was its most often seen peacetime and rear echelon state, but C&L has been around as long as the pistol.

COndition 3 was Uncle Sam's polite way of saying, by manual of arms and regulations, "Son, we don't trust you with a loaded pistol behind an actual front line."

 

[COMPNOR]

In my experience, the uniformed services are not particularly uniform. The Air Force and Navy often do things very differently from the Army, and even within the Army different commands do things differently. And in a combat zone the rules are different as well. In general in Iraq I saw the M9 loaded, hammer down, safety on, though I have seen some carry chamber empty, or safety off. Stateside, even when a soldier has a weapon, that I can tell it is not usually loaded unless they are performing some specific duty, and I am sure that varies a lot.

I'm not going to disagree there. Of course, in the Air Force, if you're carrying an M9, regardless if you're Security Forces or a CE, its chambered with the safety off. Of course I've heard of Army MPs not even having a magazine, or maybe only a single Mag. But since I have no first hand knowledge of that, I don't want to speak of what I do not know.

 

[ktd]

Not to mention those people who do not listen to the rules. I am sure there are a lot of those, I might even be one of them.

COMPNOR, I suspect that most of the USAF people with firearms are pulling some kind of guard duty or similar security function, and will therefore have loaded weapons. In the Army, I am guessing there is some degree of "everyone is a soldier", but not everyone is particularly trustworthy with having live ammo (I like the idea that everyone is a soldier, but I have seen some pretty stupid things).

There are even stories that some people (mostly during WWII from what I have heard) had rubber guns for some low level guard duty.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Especially when the first shot is the most important shot

perhaps because a DA first shot, assuming they were properly instructed, isn't any slower or less accurate

as a matter of fact, a DA first shot is a great impediment to a first shot flinch

 

[PlayMaker]

perhaps because a DA first shot, assuming they were properly instructed, isn't any slower or less accurate

as a matter of fact, a DA first shot is a great impediment to a first shot flinch

I can understand how a person can practice and get used to DA to the point where the pull isn't an issue but I'd have to disagree with you and say SA is always preferable and cocked and locked is the way to go.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...I can understand how a person can practice and get used to DA to the point where the pull isn't an issue but I'd have to disagree with you and say SA is always preferable and cocked and locked is the way to go....

Condition 1 is fine for a single action auto-loader like a 1911 or a Browning High Power. It is not fine for most DA/SA pistols, like the Beretta, M9, SIGs, etc., because their in general their design does not permit engaging the safety when cocked. There are very few exceptions (notably the CZ75 and H&K USP in variant 1, I believe).

Cocked and locked is simply not an option for most DA/SA pistols.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I'd have to disagree with you and say SA is always preferable and cocked and locked is the way to go.

i think the title of your thread contradicts this as being "always preferable".

SA hasn't been prefered by most LE agencies since the days of the SAA, unless you acknowledge the Glock as actually being SA...rather than the DAO that they've sold though marketing.

are you disagreeing that the DA first shot is just as fast or just as accurate?

as a point of reference, i'm speaking to the first shot from the holster to placing an accurate shot on target...at something beyond contact distance (just to exclude "quick draw" fanning examples)

 

[PlayMaker]

i think the title of your thread contradicts this as being "always preferable".

OK, I was being nice. I meant to say better. It may not always be preferable because of some policy or another but it is better.

are you disagreeing that the DA first shot is just as fast or just as accurate?

Yes I am. If you give a guy the same gun and have him shoot it in DA and SA, he most definately will do better with the SA 100% of the time.

 

[rodinal220]

"Why doesn't LE prefer condition #1 ? "

The question should really read:Why doesn't the Chief/Brass prefer #1?

Most Chiefs or upper brass in a PD are not street guys and know next to nothing about firearms.They freak out about #1 carry with the hammer back.Chiefs like heavy DAO or DA/SA type actions.Police officers do not always receive or maintain the best firearms training.I think if the IACP could mandate 25lbs+ trigger pulls,manual safety and have to call in permission to fire they would.

 

[9mmepiphany]

If you give a guy the same gun and have him shoot it in DA and SA, he most definately will do better with the SA 100% of the time.

that might be true, depending on the level of training you give him...it definatly takes less training to jerk a SA trigger


would you care to expand on your level of training and experience that lead you to this conclusion?

 

[rscalzo]

LE for the most part never utilized handguns that offered that option. LE only began the switch to a semi-auto when the S&W and Berretta became widely available. Agencies that authorized a 1911 style handgun were far and few between and accounted for a small percentage of uniformed officers.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Even when they are on duty? The M9 is supposed to be carried chambered and safety off when on duty.

As stated earlier, that depends mostly upon local unit's instructions. 1st Army in Bagdad, Iraq last summer, for example was gun completely empty, hammer down, safety on, loaded magazine in a pocket.

My personal preference is fully loaded, decocked, safety off, DA first shot. One less action (taking safety off) to deal with when drawing.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

"...The General saw the mountain-range ahead,
With their 'elios showin' saucy on the 'eight,
An' telegraphed the Boojers wouldn't fight.
For 'e might ' ave gone 'an sprayed 'em with a pompom,
Or 'e might 'ave slung a squadron out to see-
But 'e wasn't takin' chances in them 'igh an' 'ostile kranzes,
He was markin' time to earn a K.C.B... ."

The Stellenbosch Syndrome (fear of making a mistake -- in the Boer War, incompetent officers were sent to the supply base at Stellenbosch) leads many officers to avoid any chance of something going wrong that they could be blamed for.

 

[Mags]

As stated earlier, that depends mostly upon local unit's instructions. 1st Army in Bagdad, Iraq last summer, for example was gun completely empty, hammer down, safety on, loaded magazine in a pocket

Well the 31 series Air Force instructions are Air Force wide and they state the M9 is to be carried round chambered, decocked, and safety off. Can't speak for the other services.

 

[GLOOB]

Why do people assume that military needs = law enforcement needs?

I'd think military personnel 1. hardly use their pistols 2. know when they're about to engage the enemy 3. when they do get surprise attacked, it's probably from a lot farther away... where the first thing they do is drop to the ground or take cover. Unconventional warfare changes that a bit, but still not LE territory.

LE can get shot at during any stop, they don't often carry an M16 in their hands, and they're often alone.

LE need to be able to deploy their pistol quickly, yet have a gun that's easy to make safe after it's fired.

A DAO fills the bill. Pull trigger = shoot. Take finger off trigger = safe.

 

[Mags]

Gloob, many Soldiers, Airmen, Marines, and Sailors carry weapons stateside for securing assets and bases and mainly play an LE role on the installations. Granted far more military members go off to war nowadays then staying stateside but the military does have a peacetime mission and are required to carry daily stateside in the performance of their duties where the threat may happen upon them just as a civilian LE officer.

 

[Drail]

If you saw how most LE handle a gun you would not give them a C&L 1911. They're barely trained enough to use a Glock.

 

[9mmepiphany]

If you saw how most LE handle a gun you would not give them a C&L 1911. They're barely trained enough to use a Glock.

you say that as it the glock were inherently safer that the 1911

 

[bigger hammer]

Who said we don't prefer "Condition 1?" I carried a 1911 like that for about 25 years; liked it just fine.

It's usually police "administrators" who don't like it. It looks scary to the public and generally requires more training than the admins like to pay for.

 

[9mmepiphany]

maybe i should add that i am personally a big fan of the 1911 and have carried one as my duty weapon...i've been in LE long enough that my right to carry one was "grandfathered".

however i do think it isn't suitable as a "general issue" pistol.

but that's just me...i don't think a Glock is a good issue gun either, but i carry a glock 19 alot when offduty

 

[LancerMW]

first off its not because "cops and GI's" would shoot themselves due to lack of training, its public perception. to the average person who dislikes or dosent know about guns it is perceived as unsafe, hence why generally LEO's arent allowed to carry 1911's and such

 

[HorseSoldier]

In my experience on the military side, the M9 was always required to be decocked and safety on in conventional units I served in, and decocked safety off on the SOF side of the house.

In LE, my agency has zero problem with officers who carry 1911s carrying cocked and locked. (I assume the same would be true of someone who carried a USP, High Power, or other pistol that allowed for cocked and locked carry, though I'm not aware of anyone who does.) You can't effectively carry a 1911 as a gunfighting weapon in any condition besides #1, so the alternative would be to ban them, I suppose.

 

[tipoc]

When law enforcement made the transition away from wheelguns to semis the choice was to da/sa pistols overwhelmingly. One of the major considerations there was to have guns with a long da pull for the first shot so as to prevent (or have the option of appearing to prevent) unwanted shootings. Even before the transition a few agencies had gone to dao revolvers just to avoid the charge that they were holding a man at gunpoint with a cocked revolver and "it just went off".

So the major reasons for the da/sa gun in addition to the above were; lack of training. Given minimal time to train it was thought that the da/sa was safer. Same for the "dao" Glock (which was largely adopted widely due to the price point) and that polymer is lighter than a third gen S&W. Round count was another factor. The "wonder nines" were very popular with law enforcement. Cops became prone to "spray and pray".

tipoc

 

[PlayMaker]

however i do think it isn't suitable as a "general issue" pistol.

but that's just me...i don't think a Glock is a good issue gun either, but i carry a glock 19 alot when offduty

9mm, your opinion is greatly appreciated so which pistol do you think would be a suitable issue pistol?

 

[9mmepiphany]

which pistol do you think would be a suitable issue pistol?

in alloy, i think the Sig DAK 226 9mm or 357 Sig is outstanding.
1. simple trigger...light and long constant stroke
2. simple design...tolerent of questionable maintence
3. simple takedown of gun and magazine