KsSkaEnthusiast
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I think our real takeaway here is that ruger makes a damn good rifle for 400 bucks.
Why I hate black stocked rifles
- Thread starter 9x56MS
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Perhaps we all got used to good Governance from Franklin Roosevelt, Harry Truman, and Dwight Eisenhower, and forgot that the natural state of Government is self interest, not the interest of the Governed.
I think this is true of all human Organizations:
The Organization wants to grow.
The Organization regards those who help it grow, as useful fools.
The Organization is totally self centered.
The Organization is totally grandiose.
The Organization has no guilt or shame.
The Organization demands selfless service, but the Organization is totally selfish. Everything and everybody is disposable to the needs of the Organization.
The Organization eliminates or crushes, those who impede or oppose it in any way.
The Organization is fearless.
The Organization cannot admit fault.
The Organization shoots the messenger.
The Organization believes its own propaganda and expels those who don't.
The Organization can only have a master/slave relationship with others. If you are negotiating with the Organization, it knows you are weak.
The Organization cannot abide rivals, hates its masters, is contemptuous of the weak.
Riomouse911
Member
I am a fan of walnut and blued steel for my hunting guns, target guns, fun guns, etc. Nothing is more pleasing than the look, feel and smell of a nice rifle or shotgun just pulled out of the gun cabinet..
I’ll even pop off a plane-Jane synthetic stock and install a Boyd’s wood laminate stock to improve the feel and look of the synthetic stocked bolt guns I own;
Ruger American Rimfire:
Winchester Model 70 before:
After:
For “working guns”, which to me mean duty guns, I’m just fine with black synthetic stocks, whether on an AR…
an Mp5…
Or a Glock
Sometimes there is beauty to be found in sheer functionality.
Stay safe.
I’ll even pop off a plane-Jane synthetic stock and install a Boyd’s wood laminate stock to improve the feel and look of the synthetic stocked bolt guns I own;
Ruger American Rimfire:
Winchester Model 70 before:
After:
For “working guns”, which to me mean duty guns, I’m just fine with black synthetic stocks, whether on an AR…
an Mp5…
Or a Glock
Sometimes there is beauty to be found in sheer functionality.
Stay safe.
d2wing
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- Nov 10, 2008
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- 6,421
The op can hate all he wants. Free choice. But there are holes in that story. For instance nobody just came from Vietnam in 1975. Last troops left in March 1973. The people that had the jamming problems were the early versions before 1969. I know some Marines that rabidly hate them with good reason. I was switched over from M14 which I liked to M16 in 1969 which I liked and had no problems with and neither did anyone I served with in Vietnam. Also I didn't think that they issued full auto versions by 1975. I am not sure. They had 3 round burst mode. You are entitled your opinion but it's all hearsay of doubtful source in my opinion. Still many people feel that way that is your right. Also that was a long time ago and memories are not always clear.
MosinT53Hunter
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For being a black rifle, the MP-5 is still a sexy machine to me. Mine is 22. lr, and I am still happy I got it when I did.
Goes well with my Beretta 71.
Goes well with my Beretta 71.
trackskippy
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I think you might be confused on the dates on the 3 round bursts. And if I remember right, the 3 shot burst didnt actually show up until sometime in the 90's. But, its been a while, and I may be misremembering too.
The M16's and M16A1's I had shot, up into the mid-70s, all had FA. The last bunch I shot that were "issue" rifles, that came from a USMC reserve center armory.
d2wing
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Thanks for the update. The main advantage of the M16 in the first place was it's ability to fire full auto.I think you might be confused on the dates on the 3 round bursts. And if I remember right, the 3 shot burst didnt actually show up until sometime in the 90's. But, its been a while, and I may be misremembering too.
The M16's and M16A1's I had shot, up into the mid-70s, all had FA. The last bunch I shot that were "issue" rifles, that came from a USMC reserve center armory.
Chuck R.
Member
I think you might be confused on the dates on the 3 round bursts. And if I remember right, the 3 shot burst didnt actually show up until sometime in the 90's. But, its been a while, and I may be misremembering too.
The M16's and M16A1's I had shot, up into the mid-70s, all had FA. The last bunch I shot that were "issue" rifles, that came from a USMC reserve center armory.
When I enlisted in 78 we were issued the M16A1 which was full auto. When I came back in as a 2LT in 87 we had m16A2s which were 3rd burst. So I think sometime mid 80s.
The original M16 and M16A1 are full auto. The M16A2 is three round burst and was adopted by the DOD in 1982. Though it took at least another 10 years for the A2 to be issued to all military units. I was issued my first A2 when I got to Germany and was assigned to the 1st Armored Div in Jan 1992, until then all my units still had the A1. I was issued and used both in combat. for me, the A1 has a better/smoother trigger pull since it doesn't have the 3 round burst cam.
Now when we get to the M4, most were also 3 round burst excect for the M4A1 which was issued first to SOCOM units. The m16A3 is full auto while the M16A4 is 3 round burst.
entropy
Member
The Marines were issued the M16A2 from '82 on, the 82nd, 101st @1984-5, the 7thID(L) in 1985-7, (Them being the bulk of the RDF) the rest of the Army from then on.I think you might be confused on the dates on the 3 round bursts. And if I remember right, the 3 shot burst didnt actually show up until sometime in the 90's. But, its been a while, and I may be misremembering too.
The M16's and M16A1's I had shot, up into the mid-70s, all had FA. The last bunch I shot that were "issue" rifles, that came from a USMC reserve center armory.
DustyGmt
Member
Anyone who served and was issued an M1 is in my opinion absolved of any and all smack talk against M16/AR pattern rifles.
It definitely took longer to get the A2 to other active duty units and even longer to get them to Reserve/National Guard units and Basic Training bases. I know Ft Leonardwood was still using A1's in 1990 for Basic and AIT companies. I saw at least 1 NG battalion actually deployed to Saudi for Desert Shield show up with M14 rifles.
DustyGmt
Member
What is a Mk 727 carbine? I don't recall ever hearing of one and I just Googled it and turned up nothing. Would you have a pic of it by chance?
entropy
Member
It was a transitional version of the M16A2 as a carbine, between the XM177E2 and the M4. We also built CARs with commercial pistol uppers on M16A2 lowers, which basically were the same thing, with an even shorter barrel. (The 727 had a 14.5" barrel, the cobbled together ones were 10 or 10.5".)
FL-NC
Member
It is what entropy said, below. They were built at Anniston with old M16A1 receivers. Essentially a M4 carbine using the A2 (no flat top) upper. We used older optics mounted to the carry handle, like the aimpoint 5000 and the 4x BLITS scope. Lights were surefire 6P on a bracket mount that attached to the front sight A frame. Used through somalia in my unit, replaced by the M4 just prior to haiti ('94).
MosinT53Hunter
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According to my image search, this is a very close representative of what a Colt Mk 727 looks like. (Image originally posted in ar15.com)
And I'll add to the confusion here. The first M4's to be adopted were the XM4 which also used the fixed carry handle A2 upper receiver. Most if not all XM4 carbines went to SOCOM units. The true M4 has the flat top receiver. Now I did see a few XM177E2 carbines in the arms room while I was stationed at Ft Devens in 1991. There were a lot of old US and foreign weapons that were used for training purposes or special missions.
Speedo66
Member
When I entered the Army Reserves in 1967 we had M-1's and M-1 Carbines.Anyone who served and was issued an M1 is in my opinion absolved of any and all smack talk against M16/AR pattern rifles.
I did basic training and AIT (supply clerk) at Ft. Ord in Monterey CA in 1967-1968 with an M-14. Went back to my reserve unit and was discharged from active reserve in 1972, still with M-1's and M-1 Carbines.
Never saw or touched an M-16 the entire time I was in, which is probably why I have no interest in them.
Edit: People I served in basic with told me that when they arrived in Vietnam they were handed an M-16, having never trained with them or been taught to clean them unless they'd been in infantry school.
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DustyGmt
Member
That's really quite nice. It needs a scope and a bayonet lug and it would look even better....
FL-NC
Member
That looks like one of the carbines issued in SOF units through the 80's and early 90's, with the pencil barrel and A1 upper. I saw some USAF EOD guys working with us carrying similar weapons around '05.
FL-NC
Member
What you are describing as XM4 is what we called the 727, or just a CAR. But ours had the vintage A1 lowers cannibalized from older rifles. We did have some carbines that had the flat top upper and 14.5" stepped barrel (for the 203) that were brand new (we received them in the packaging) called "M16A2 carbine", that was identical in every way to the M4A1 except the markings. I never got one of those, I kept the MK727 until we got the "true" M4's some time after. I was told that the "A2 carbines" were early M4's that were marked A2 carbine because they were manufactured prior to the M4 becoming adopted as a standard item.
GunnyUSMC
Member
The rifle in that pic has a C7 upper receiver. Basically an A1 upper with a brass deflector.
I built one like it.
DustyGmt
Member
Now I want to build one.
. From what I gather A1 uppers are rare as hens teeth these days....
GunnyUSMC
Member
It did take some time to get the A2 issued. If I remember right it was in 1984 when the Marine Corps started issuing the A2 as the standard issue rifle. I was with 1/7 (First Battalion, Seventh Marines) we were one of the first Battalions that were issued the A2s. Everyone and there mom were stopping by to check them out on the day we were first issued the A2.
GunnyUSMC
Member
You can find the C7 uppers, but you’ll have to pay a little bit more.Now I want to build one.
https://retrorifles.com/c7-c8-m16a1e1-upper-receiver/
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