Why I hate black stocked rifles

[GunnyUSMC]

Oh! And for the ones that don’t like black rifles, there are other colors available.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Oh! I did want to make a comment on the M1A1 and the M16.
I moved into my house 29 years ago. I had the great fortune of having a great neighbor that lived across the street. Jim and I became good friends the day we meet. We were both Marines. Me being the much younger one. Jim was in one of the first Marine unit deployed to Vietnam. He told me that he carried the M1A1 and was very fond of it, but it was heavy and after every patrol it had to be completely taken apart and cleaned, and the stock oiled to keep it from rotting.
He said that when they got the new M16, he wasn’t all that happy at first. He said that the M16 did find a place in his heart. It was lighter, he could carry more ammo, and the rifle was more controllable. And that you couldn’t hit jack with the M1A1 on full auto.
I would love to go sit and have coffee with my good friend Jim again, but he passed away a few months ago. All that smoking and drinking he did years ago to fight off the demons took their toll. I hope Jim has found the peace that he deserves.

 

[trackskippy]

I grew up with WWII, Korea, and Vietnam Marines. All loved the M1 and M14, and they all loved the M16, just maybe a tad less than the others though.

All of the Vietnam vets had all three rifles, but to a one, till the day they died, they all had an AR with their 782 gear all ready to go.

 

[12Bravo20]

What you are describing as XM4 is what we called the 727, or just a CAR

Actually they were two different carbines unless units buying or building the 727 were stamping them as an XM4. The first release of the M4 Carbines were all marked as XM4 and had the A2 upper receiver. Here is the evolution of carbines in the US Military: XM177, XM177E2, commercially procured or rebuilt rifles into the 727, XM4, and M4/A1. The XM4 carbines came from the factory and were properly marked as XM4. This has also been verified by the member Cold Blue on ARFCOM who was a Marine officer heavily involved with the development of the A2.

 

[entropy]

Now I want to build one. . From what I gather A1 uppers are rare as hens teeth these days....

Of course, now that I am going to order the lower to replicate my issue M!6A1.

https://www.atomicengraving.com/pro...ne-harrington-richardson-replica-vietnam-era/ They will put any serial # on it you want. You have to send them an 80% lower.

Actually they were two different carbines unless units buying or building the 727 were stamping them as an XM4. The first release of the M4 Carbines were all marked as XM4 and had the A2 upper receiver. Here is the evolution of carbines in the US Military: XM177, XM177E2, commercially procured or rebuilt rifles into the 727, XM4, and M4/A1. The XM4 carbines came from the factory and were properly marked as XM4. This has also been verified by the member Cold Blue on ARFCOM who was a Marine officer heavily involved with the development of the A2.

I concur, and can verify the rebuilt rifles with commercially procured barrels. That was a fun project. I'm sure @Hummer70 could put in his .02 on the development of carbines also.

 

[Speedo66]

Anyone have one of the original M-16 hand guards with the Mattel logo molded in?

I understand that while they continued to make hand guards, they eliminated their logo on them because of negative popular opinion among soldiers and others.

Snopes says it's for real, Mattel didn't make rifles, but they did make hand guards.

"You can tell it's Mattel. it's swell!"

 

[DustyGmt]

Oh! And for the ones that don’t like black rifles, there are other colors available.
View attachment 1022430 View attachment 1022432 View attachment 1022433 View attachment 1022434 View attachment 1022435 View attachment 1022436 View attachment 1022437 View attachment 1022438

3rd one up from the top, scoped. What brand of rail covers are those, at a glance they look like KAC. I like the camo pattern. I've thought about doing all my rifles sort of like this. Just have one theme....

 

[wbm]

USMC. Vietnam 66 and 67. The "Rat Guns" we got would get you killed! They truly were a POS!

 

[12Bravo20]

There is no denying that the first M16 rifles had issues. Most of that went away when the M16A1 was issued.

 

[d2wing]

USMC. Vietnam 66 and 67. The "Rat Guns" we got would get you killed! They truly were a POS!

I have Marine friends from that time that agree with you and have horror stories about it. I don't blame you. Luckily I didn't have those problems in 1969.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

The Opening Poster tied his aversion to all black rifle stocks to the horror stories from Vietnam vets of how bad the early issue M16s were and his own negative impression of the M16 from basic.

 

[tark]

The originals were grey anodizing and OD green stocks.

And no fences and no forward assist and duck billed flash suppressors and they worked just fine.. Well. at least one had a prototype F/A. I think when Armalite sold the rights to colt, things turned to crap. That black one above the shiny M-14 is the original AR-15 first adopted by the Air Force, or so I'm told. It had been so long since I held an early AR, I had forgotten how very lightweight they are.

 

[DustyGmt]

There is a reason why you don't hear alot of veterans having anything bad to say about M16's/M4's, they work. The problems they were prone to 50 years ago don't exist today and haven't existed for nearly the same time. But........if I was a Nam vet issued one of those early M16's and I lost sons/brothers/fathers and hated the gd thing, I would certainly not have the balls to raise the issue with you.......

 

[wbm]

I don't blame you.

But they did at the time. Said we did not properly clean. The real problem was chamber tolerance and ammunition. After a few rounds and heat expansion the brass would freeze in the chamber and not eject plus brass was "soft" enough that the extractor stripped it...then you had a stuck round with no way to get it out except to take a cleaning rod, get up on one knee and try to ram it out....then if you were not fortunate you got shot! Still read the "official study" that was mostly CYA all the way. There should be a "How It Really Happened" about that.
Show me a Marine that was not checking or cleaning his weapon when the opportunity came and I'll show a Marine that was never a snuffy!
Am I over sensitive? Probably. But I got tired of taking crap from people over Nam years ago. Very intolerant now.

 

[Boattale]

I reported to MCRD San Diego 8/20/1970. By then, the M-16 was a very reliable platform. Qualified in boot with an M-14 but honestly preferred the M 16 once we got out of boot camp.

I served as a company armorer for D Co, 1st Bn. 9th Marine Regiment in 1972. Went to armorer school and everything. Replaced a lot of M 16 barrels and gas tubes at school and a few other parts too. Got to understand how to make a 1911 more accurate. It was a great gig for a new Corporal. Inspected literally thousands of rifles (hundreds at a time) getting checked into the armory after any range day or field exercise. To this day I still find M-16, AR rifles of every description and stock 1911's just plain boring. With a capital B.

 

[Slamfire]

But they did at the time. Said we did not properly clean. The real problem was chamber tolerance and ammunition. After a few rounds and heat expansion the brass would freeze in the chamber and not eject plus brass was "soft" enough that the extractor stripped it...then you had a stuck round with no way to get it out except to take a cleaning rod, get up on one knee and try to ram it out....then if you were not fortunate you got shot! Still read the "official study" that was mostly CVA all the way. There should be a "How It Really Happened" about that.
Show me a Marine that was not checking or cleaning his weapon when the opportunity came and I'll show a Marine that was never a snuffy!
Am I over sensitive? Probably. But I got tired of taking crap from people over Nam years ago. Very intolerant now.

One veteran I talked to, said if a round was left in the chamber over night, the round would expand, and could not be extracted. It took a cleaning rod to knock the thing out. It was standard policy in his Company to leave the chamber empty, and they did not put 20 in the magazine.

Did you every hear of this, or saw this?

Incidentally, I read this more than once, but that was the first, first person account. I wonder what caused this, because I don't understand how a round would swell due to humidity. But, if the chamber rusted, because the early rifles did not have chrome plated chambers, I could see that causing extraction difficulties.

 

[Mk-211]

They only loaded 18 rounds due to older springs not being that good, some would put to much pressure on the bottom of the bolt and cause the rifle to jam. That or the pressure would cause double feeds out of the mag.

A problem with ammo and swelling is tracers and incendiary bullets. They're hygroscopic and attract moisture, which can cause them to swell. Which can cause them to get stuck in the chamber, not sure if it can happen as fast as overnight.

And as you touched on, the chambers not being chromed and not being cleaned... It could cause rounds to get stuck in the chamber. Moisture, fouling and rust in the chamber of a rifle could cause a round to get stuck.

 

[wbm]

To this day I still find M-16, AR rifles of every description and stock 1911's just plain boring. With a capital B.

+1.
Ok Boatale I rotated out in 70 and you were an armorer so what did you do with my M14? Damn fine outfit 1-9! I was attached to them in 67 from time to time on air teams. Semper Fi.

 

[Boattale]

+1.
Ok Boatale I rotated out in 70 and you were an armorer so what did you do with my M14? Damn fine outfit 1-9! I was attached to them in 67 from time to time on air teams. Semper Fi.

Not sure. What was the rifle's serial number?
Semper Fi to you too Marine.

 

[wbm]

Rarely carried my issue M14 except when I was an fng. I was 2533 so I carried a PRC25 and having an M14 on your shoulder was a pita. Had an M3 most of the time then I actually traded some stuff to a CB and got a Swedish K...what a hoot that was. Didn't keep it long and ended up with the M3.

 

[Meeks36]

Walnut and steel has always worked for me.

How about pallet wood and Chinese steel? Boy shot the AK the first time last weekend. Wasn’t a fan. Now his Henry lever was a blast!

 

[Boattale]

Rarely carried my issue M14 except when I was an fng. I was 2533 so I carried a PRC25 and having an M14 on your shoulder was a pita. Had an M3 most of the time then I actually traded some stuff to a CB and got a Swedish K...what a hoot that was. Didn't keep it long and ended up with the M3.

Before the Armorer gig, I was an 0351 in K 3/7 on Pendleton. 0351 was an obsolete MOS so in reality I was an 0341 Lance Coolie, carrying around a 60 MM tube, a bipod or a baseplate and some other stuff. I was big then and they made me carry the radio too. Those radio frames are a torture device. What really sucked was when they added an encryption deal that was about the same size and weight to the PRC 25. By the time you had a radio, the encryption doo dad, a mortar part, a few mortar rounds an M-16 and a regular pack on your back it seemed heavy to me. To add insult to injury, after carrying all that crap around, I couldn't talk on the radio or fire the mortar. I was a true government mule in those days.

 

[wbm]

So question for all the "Rat Gun" fans. Is the current version it a better weapon than the AK-47 or the AK-74?

I was an 0341 Lance Coolie

LOL. You were that! 0341 is just a "smart 03" man! I was 2533...aka... a "dit happy" grunt that not only carried the PRC25 he could also send code. oooooo! The Corps, in its wisdom, sent a few of us from 3/8 Lejeune to Las Pulgas for "jungle warfare training" before we went to Nam...I heard there was a tree at Pulgas once.

Remember Marine. In the Corps "every day is a holiday and every meal is a feast."

 

[Bruce D Pease]

As an old 0311 (secondary 0331) I got this from my gunney …. Someone asked him why they called 29 Palms …. His answer …. Cuz there ain’t 30.

 

[12Bravo20]

Someone asked him why they called 29 Palms

You mean 29 stumps