Why I use a 9mm for carry instead of 45acp

[2zulu1]

I'm linking to Mike McNett's ballistic gel data for what he was loading at the time. Don't know what powder he loads now, but some years back he liked Longshot powder for the 10mm.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=336612

For some reason a number of people compare KE numbers between service calibers, it is incorrect to do so. In comparing DT's 10mm/180gr Gold Dot to their 45auto/230gr Gold Dot we know that both loadings are in the same sectional density group and both loadings expand and penetrate the same, despite the 10mm's much higher KE numbers. Using momentum calculations we learn that both loadings basically share the same momentum.

Sierra V has separate 45auto load data for revolvers and I've achieved 230gr/1100fps from a S&W M25-2/6" with out much difficulty using their load data.

There are certain powders like 3N38 that take 9mm/147gr and 40/165gr to very fast for caliber velocities and stay within SAAMI specs. I've chronographed ~1155fps from a G17/147gr and ~1265fps/165gr through a Steyr M40-A1/4" and ~1310fps through a Beretta M96/4.9". Through the chrome lined 16" barrel of a CX-4 Storm the MV was over 1500fps. The problem with the high velocities created by the carbine was that I was unable to find 165gr/JHPs that would hold together upon impact.

Winchester gel data for their RA45TP shows 12"+ penetration combined with 1"+ expansion in heavy clothing. I've tested this ammunition against thick cow bones and found the results to be impressive, as is the volume of the crush cavity. Given the fast split times of a M1911, this ammunition brings a very potent combination for personal defense.

 

[pockets]

I like pie.

.

 

[nr22173]

NYPD does not use the Glock 36. Maybe previous owner was a former NYPD but not a duty or approved off duty weapon.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

 

[jimbo555]

I thought we decided that a 22 is all you need!

 

[holdencm9]

I think the moral of the story is to not just blindly follow the velocity and subsequent foot-lb energy calculations given by the manufacturers, especially when using that round in a short barreled gun. Do your own research or buy a chronograph.

Most are tested in a 5" barrel, even Speer's "short barrel" ammo is tested in a 4" barrel, so if you go any shorter than that, expect some drop-offs in performance.

Check out ballistics by the inch for a starting point of information.

I just looked, and from their info, obviously the .45acp wins the KE battle out of a 5" barrel, averaging 468 ft-lbs with a high of 561 ft-lbs. The 9mm average KE was 399 ft-lbs with a high of 481 ft-lbs.

However, the MAX KE out of a 3" barrel for .45acp is 410 ft-lbs and 396 ft-lbs for a 9mm out of a 3" barrel. Much closer.

Then there are other factors to consider like if it feeds in the gun, how many rounds the magazine holds, how much perceived recoil there is (which will affect follow-up shots), bullet construction (which will affect if it expands/fragments/stays intact), etc. Hence it is a very personal unique decision only you can make for yourself, based on a lot of different factors.

 

[7thCavScout]

Oh my God, why are we doing this again?

 

[Certaindeaf]

I carry a 9 instead of .45 because it works plenty good and comes in my favorite pistol, the Hi-Power. Been carrying and shooting one of those all my life.

 

[Cricoid]

I don't know why I read all of these 9mm vs. .45 threads, but I guess it's like a bad traffic accident.....I just have to look

FWIW, I carry Winchester Ranger 124g + Ps in my M&P 9c, and feel pretty good about that round. Having 13 of them in a gun I shoot very quickly and accurately gives me a lot of confidence.

BUT I can shoot my Glock 29 just as well with some very hard hitting 165g JHPs (approaching 1400fps.) I've started reloading, and 10mm has become the round for me. My M&P 9mm generally stays home now.

I have several .45s as well, but they are all big guns that I don't carry much except in winter OWB under a lot of clothes. My Glock 21 serves bedside duty, and I generally only target shoot with my 1911s. I've had some shorter barrel .45s, but I never warmed to them.

The debate will never end. 9mm vs .45 for me leads to a clear winner....

10mm

 

[beatledog7]

All of these carry gun caliber go-rounds can be answered in the same way...

Use what works for you, which I would define as the largest gun that you will regularly carry in the largest caliber you shoot well enough at close range to hit where you're aiming.

There are people who will not regularly practice but will get enough range time to become proficient enough to put rounds on target close up; they probably should own only one carry gun and should apply the above principles to choosing that one gun.

There are people who won't practice at all. They should carry pepper spray.

Then there are people who have had or will get training and will regularly practice the kinds of skills they need to become or remain proficient at defensive handgunning. The gun they choose can be anything they like.

If you choose to shoot, what matters most is that you're on solid legal and moral ground and that you make (a) good shot(s). Given those parameters, what round(s) you fire from what handgun will make little difference.

 

[Certaindeaf]

.Then there are people who have had or will get training and will regularly practice the kinds of skills they need to become or remain proficient at defensive handgunning. The gun they choose can be anything they like..

But I heard that the .25acp will just make a mouse very angry.

 

[Skribs]

Use what works for you, which I would define as the largest gun that you will regularly carry in the largest caliber you shoot well enough at close range to hit where you're aiming.

I don't personally see the larger caliber as much incentive, because you really don't hit a whole lot more with a larger caliber when you look at the target. Even though I shot .45 just fine, I started out with .40 and have since moved down to 9. I don't feel undergunned at all.

 

[Kleanbore]

Velocity?

Well, it's one component of kinetic energy, which in turn is one of several factors that influence penetration, which in turn is one component of the wounding effectiveness of a single projectile.

A single hit from a .45 ACP would likely be somewhat more effective than a single hit from a 9MM with similar penetration capability, hitting an identical target in the same place at the same angle in the same circumstances. The reason has to do with the size of the permanent wound channel.

But depending upon what it hits, one projectile may not do the job.

There is also the question of how many effective hits can be achieved how quickly with one handgun vs another. Recoil (impulse and axis), grip, trigger pull, sight radius, and magazine capacity figure in here.

But consider weight, and size.

Compromises.

Do not get too enamored with muzzle velocity or kinetic energy or expanded diameter, and do not expect too much from a single hit.

 

[beatledog7]

Certaindeaf: There's little chance that a person who's truly proficient will choose a .25ACP -- he can shoot something larger and nearly always will choose to do so.

Skribs: True, the larger caliber may not prove more effective at SD range. But provided it hits where it was meant to hit, it won't be less effective.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Certaindeaf: There's little chance that a person who's truly proficient will choose a .25ACP -- he can shoot something larger and nearly always will choose to do so..

But what if he's like super duper proficient. Then might he "choose whatever he likes"?

 

[Skribs]

Skribs: True, the larger caliber may not prove more effective at SD range. But provided it hits where it was meant to hit, it won't be less effective.

Very true.

 

[jmr40]

Forget the math, this has been tested every way imaginable for over 100 years. Neither 45 of 9mm can claim to be best. In some tests 9mm is slighty better, 45 comes out slightly better in others. Part of the problem is that some only want to recognize those tests that show their preferred round is the winner and ignore the others.

As long as you are comparing comparable ammo in both there is no difference in the end result. They just go about it in different ways.

This is like 2 boxers still fighting after 500 rounds trying to prove who is best. Lets call it a tie and go home.

 

[Skribs]

This is like 2 boxers still fighting after 500 rounds trying to prove who is best. Lets call it a tie and go home.

Or, considering how anemic both rounds really are in the grand scheme of things, it's like this wrestling match:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AS4bPgwizqc

 

[beatledog7]

But what if he's like super duper proficient. Then might he "choose whatever he likes"?

Of course. My point is that a truly proficient defensive handgunner got that way in part because he understands the physics of firearms and that he will not "like" a .25ACP well enough to be willing to accept its limitations as his primary SD firearm.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Of course. My point is that a truly proficient defensive handgunner got that way in part because he understands the physics of firearms and that he will not "like" a .25ACP well enough to be willing to accept its limitations as his primary SD firearm.

Well that's not the way it sounded in your post #34. Perhaps you should have elaborated/qualified your statement then.

 

[beatledog7]

Added clarifications and elaborations notwithstanding, I stand by what I said post #34 about a truly proficient handgunner's SD firearm choice.

...there are people who have had or will get training and will regularly practice the kinds of skills they need to become or remain proficient at defensive handgunning. The gun they choose can be anything they like.

Most highly proficient SD handgunners choose something in .38cal/9mm or larger, but that's not the point. If such a person selects something chambered in .25ACP or .22LR as his preferred primary SD firearm, he has good reasons for doing so that I'm in no position to challenge.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Added clarifications and elaborations notwithstanding, I stand by what I said post #34 about a truly proficient handgunner's SD firearm choice.



Most highly proficient SD handgunners choose something in .38cal/9mm or larger, but that's not the point. If such a person selects something chambered in .25ACP or .22LR as his preferred primary SD firearm, he has good reasons for doing so that I'm in no position to challenge.

So you're saying that Man has free will? How nevermind of you.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by beatledog7: Most highly proficient SD handgunners choose something in .38cal/9mm or larger, but that's not the point. If such a person selects something chambered in .25ACP or .22LR as his preferred primary SD firearm, he has good reasons for doing so that I'm in no position to challenge.

Might I suggest that high proficiency with a handgun does not necessarily imply any understanding at all of the things that influence rim-fire ammunition quality or the impact of moisture on reliability; nor does it necessarily carry with it any knowledge of the wounding effectiveness of the .25ACP and .22LR cartridges.

I'll go a step further: he or she who does select such a firearm for SD clearly does not understand those things, and many of us are indeed in a position to challenge his or her reasons.

 

[Skribs]

Might I suggest that high proficiency with a handgun does not necessarily imply any understanding at all of the things that influence rim-fire ammunition quality or the impact of moisture on reliability; nor does it necessarily carry with it any knowledge of the wounding effectiveness of the .25ACP and .22LR cartridges.

Yep, I've learned to separate skill with knowledge when I'm talking to people, although generally there is some overlap. I'm not just talking about firearms.

 

[Striker]

Might I suggest that high proficiency with a handgun does not necessarily imply any understanding at all of the things that influence rim-fire ammunition quality or the impact of moisture on reliability; nor does it necessarily carry with it any knowledge of the wounding effectiveness of the .25ACP and .22LR cartridges.

I'll go a step further: he or she who does select such a firearm for SD clearly does not understand those things, and many of us are indeed in a position to challenge his or her reasons.

Sigh.... Nothing is absolute, to wit (from a previous post of mine):

At one point in my life, I was in a country that limited possesion to firearms of a "non military or police" caliber (.32 ACP, .380ACP, .38 Spl, 9mm, .38 Super, & .45 ACP were prohibited and this was before the time of the extended 9's. The .40 wasn't born yet). My only options were .25ACP or .22 LR

I couldn't find a PP series in .22, so I had a Ruger MK II 512 bull barrel cut back to 2", replaced the target sights with fabricated fixed sights, and had the gun parkerized. Got a belt slide type holster and mag pouch made up and away I went.

Amazingly, I got permission to carry the gun concealed and did so the entire time I was there. Not my first choice, but it was reliable, accurate and legal. Except for vermin, I never needed it, but it was comforting to have around.

Just sayin' .....as always, YMMV.

 

[EastKY_DO]

And the number of spirits that can dance on the head of a pin is . . .